Episode 48 – Reunification: An Honest Conversation Around Foster Care’s Primary Goal

TRANSCRIPT:

Courtney (00:00.44)
I’m hearing something. I don’t know if that’s sounds like a lawnmower.

Travis (00:01.378)
Who’s drag racing?

Brian (00:02.286)
Yeah. It’s the weed eater guy who I, they showed up even though I had no plans to use them this year. I bought a lawn mower and all that. So now I’ve got to go out and yeah. So you want to try again?

Travis (00:05.75)
Julie’s out there racing the minivan.

Travis (00:11.456)
okay.

Travis (00:20.069)
man.

Courtney (00:25.54)
You

Travis (00:25.57)
Sure. Rome! Okay. All right. From the top.

Courtney (00:28.91)
You

Brian (00:29.224)
RUN!

No.

Brian (00:36.544)
All right, welcome everyone to the Foster Friendly podcast. I’m your host Brian and I’ve got my two, I’m to call at least one of them frazzled co-hosts. I glad you knew who I was talking about. Courtney, why are you frazzled?

Courtney (00:47.972)
That’s me!

Travis (00:48.886)
Courtney (00:56.9)
Oh boy, my family leaves for Mexico tomorrow morning and our lodging and everything we had lined up got canceled on us last minute. So I’m a little frazzled. Family of eight, well, family of 11 taking eight of us and yeah.

Travis (00:57.464)
Ha

Brian (01:06.158)
yes.

Travis (01:11.659)
my gosh. Wow.

Brian (01:13.234)
Wow, yeah, that’s, you’re allowed to be a little frazzled to be, you’re gonna be homeless in Mexico. Okay, we’ll turn that to a podcast episode when you come back and you tell us all about it.

Courtney (01:20.686)
Yeah

Travis (01:21.112)
The whole family.

Courtney (01:24.126)
There you go. They’ll remember it, at least that.

Travis (01:26.136)
my gosh.

Travis (01:34.444)
man.

Brian (01:35.318)
Well, today launches the first of four episodes that we’re going to do for the month of June, which is the National Reunification Month. I didn’t know it was National Reunification Month. this is one of the good reasons to be on a podcast is to learn little things like that. so reunification, that can be a pretty tough topic.

And so Travis, help us out, break us in to this topic with a little nice icebreaker.

Travis (02:11.16)
Well, I’m trying to think of what’s a good segue to Courtney’s story of coming back into the country. And we all know right now that that’s not even guaranteed. that’s it right there. Reunificate back to the country. So.

Courtney (02:11.662)
Yeah.

Brian (02:16.078)
Yeah, really.

Courtney (02:16.896)
I’m

Brian (02:19.52)
No, yeah, there may be need a reunification story there down the road, uh-huh, uh-huh.

Courtney (02:20.172)
Yeah.

Courtney (02:27.352)
And I do have a black daughter coming with and from Africa and two Hispanic kids. So we’ll see. Maybe we won’t come back with some of them.

Brian (02:32.014)
Okay, I’ll see

Travis (02:32.696)
man, wow. Okay, well this could really be an adventure. So, well, it is a heavy topic. It’s a big topic. It’s also a lot of hope in this topic, but it’s definitely one that can be polarizing at times for some. So, but what comes to your guys’ mind when you hear the word in the space of foster care reunification?

Brian (02:58.986)
It’s a little bit of a mixed bag for me. I at first, you know, it’s like, yeah, so good. mean, gosh, we just, you know, did a couple of episodes about reunification. And man, they were heartwarming when it went so well. But and my wife and I, when we fostered really focused on reunification and some of those stories are kind of messy. And my daughter saying they are.

what seemed like a miraculous reunification story years later has turned out to be a tragic one. So it’s a mixed bag when I hear the word.

Courtney (03:44.537)
I’m with you for sure. It’s interesting. I asked this question when I do foster care training. These are people that are not foster parents yet and I tell them be as honest as possible and tell me what are your thoughts about reunification? And the answers are a mixed bag. I mean, people really have a hard time with this and I understand why. But for me, what comes to mind is just messiness, maybe frazzled. Frazzled might be a good adjective for this too, but definitely that messiness. it is a hard part of foster care, but it’s a reality and it’s something that…

Travis (03:58.722)
Mm-hmm.

Travis (04:05.89)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney (04:11.522)
we should strive to be okay with and pro reunification. But it also comes with a lot of stuff that we’re going to talk about today.

Travis (04:18.776)
Yeah. Yeah. I’d say complicated, complicated. Yeah, there’s layers, layers to everybody’s story. So, yep.

Brian (04:19.042)
Yeah.

Travis, give that to you. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Well, I think that’s a lot of what we’ll unpack today. And even right off the bat, I would say that what you will typically hear from the government side, from child welfare workers, is that the primary goal of foster care is reunification. And I think I’ll ask you guys about that. You know what? I’ll actually come clean. I understand why they say that’s the goal. And it makes sense.

But I don’t, gosh, as far as just like, shouldn’t we prioritize the kid’s safety over reunification?

Sorry, We can reel that back in if you want.

Courtney (05:12.088)
Now you’re getting hot topic. Hot topic.

Travis (05:12.364)
Well, already, I mean, you’re going, you’re even going deeper quicker than I thought. So, but…

No, that’s a great, well, I did want to share something to that. And then I’m sure Courtney, you have something to weigh in just to Brian’s already throwing the gauntlet out here is that, so there’s a really good book called out of harm’s way. And this is a little bit dated back to, think 2017 or so, but the author takes a look at sort of reforming the child welfare system. And I’m just going to read a line from him in this in what he’s kind of setting up just the complexity of what it is for child welfare. And it really, to Brian’s point here, he said,

Brian (05:31.027)
Hahaha

Courtney (05:31.396)
you

Travis (05:53.036)
Brain surgeons never have to choose between saving the brain or the patient. Child welfare workers face the daunting task of trying to preserve families, ensure the safety and wellbeing of children, and on top of that, provide permanence of caregiving for the children. And on top of that, these can be contradictory goals.

Brian (06:11.788)
Yes, man, great quote, Travis.

Courtney (06:12.388)
Yeah, yeah. And that’s, that’s a wrap. We’re done. Yeah. Yeah.

Travis (06:16.056)
So that’s all I’m going to contribute today probably of any of of any help. So.

Brian (06:18.126)
Alright, it’s been great talking to you guys you guys listening wrestle with that

Travis (06:27.714)
But respond to that. do you, mean, what, that’s exactly what you’re saying. The safety and versus.

Brian (06:32.78)
Yeah, so what seems to be there are worthy goals. They’re all worthy and there’s a sense of tension between them because one goal may have to be abandoned in order to achieve the other goal. And I guess it comes down to a sense of prioritization and what I’ve seen in child welfare for the past 20 years and then being a student of it for more than

just reading about it and the history of it is there tends to be a pendulum swing between, one, like, Hey, we got to keep the, you know, get the cut child out, you know, work towards adoption. And then it’s like, then this pendulum swings the other way. We got to really prioritize reunification, the biological family, and then the child dies. Then it swings back again. And it seems like they were always driving towards one ditch or the other and, and struggling to stay on the road.

Courtney (07:33.368)
Yeah, I mean, the other thing that I noticed, I mean, I thinking about going back, being licensed for 17 years. I feel like when we first started, it was easier to get kids removed from their families, but also easier for them to be reunified. And I feel like now we’re in the spot where it’s really hard to get kids removed from their families. Sometimes the point of like, this is beyond abuse. You know, they should have been removed a long time ago.

Travis (07:34.584)
So

Courtney (08:00.484)
with the whole family’s first act. I have a love-hate relationship with it. I get why, but I feel like kids are not being removed sometimes when they should be removed. So think it’s harder to get them into care, but now I also feel like it’s harder to get them out of care. So I feel like they are not going to put them back into those situations until they really see families, you know, working through their case plan and do what they need to do. So I do see a shift that way, which I think is a pro of, you know, it’s, they’ve got to prove that they’re ready for reunification. I feel like more now than they used to, but like I said,

There’s still that shift at the beginning then where it’s harder to get them into care to begin with.

Brian (08:31.246)
Yeah, yeah, I think the families I know are experiencing the same thing. And even foster families, the kids that have been with foster families for years and want to be with that family, they’re not even being allowed to create a permanency there now. It’s a little wonky, I think.

But let’s let me let’s set the stage for like a current snapshot. What are we talking about percentage-wise? How many kids are reunified when they go into foster care? What’s that? What’s the likelihood that they are reunified?

Courtney (09:13.796)
I don’t have exact numbers right now, but in 2022, 46 % of kids were reunified, so about half. And that’s something that think people need to understand from the get-go as foster parents, people looking into foster care, because a lot of people come into foster care with the primary goal of adoption. And we’re going to have more on adoption in later episodes, but that’s one thing I want people to hear loud and clear. If you’re walking into this with your goal of being adoption, this is probably not the path for you.

We really do need to be pro-reunification when it’s safe and it’s viable and it’s good. I mean, I put myself in those parents’ shoes. I would never want to… know, if I was struggling with substance abuse, right? And if it took me two years to get my feet back on the ground, would I want my kids still removed from me? You know, when you put yourself in their shoes, it’s really hard to not be like, I get it, as hard as it is.

Travis (09:44.034)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (09:45.869)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (10:03.63)
Courtney, do you happen to know when it’s like almost half are reunified? Does that mean that they’re going back to mom and dad or mom or dad? does it also mean, no, that means they’re going to an aunt or a grandma. Okay.

Travis (10:04.044)
Yeah. Well.

Courtney (10:22.646)
No, that would be a different number. yep, that’s more, almost half are going back to where they came from. So whether it was mom or dad, sometimes this is somebody else they were removed from, but whomever they were removed from. And then there’s another percentage of people that are, you know, adopted to, to grandparents or guardianship through grandparents or legal custody or other things.

Travis (10:25.304)
Thomas.

Brian (10:26.968)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (10:31.374)
Okay.

Travis (10:39.244)
Mm-hmm.

Well, and I think that too, as we set this up, you know, it may seem obvious to like, you know, when we talk about the why, but some things aren’t quite, you know, cause some people’s responsible, it’s their, you know, it’s the birth parents, children, it’s, you know, almost like property, it’s theirs, you know, that’s why, but there, we know like, there are deep seated reasons, you know, just with our wiring, our biology, you know, just even our physiology, there just seems to be a hard wired connection.

Brian (11:06.956)
Mm-hmm.

Travis (11:11.202)
for biology and then just like family identity, like that is another reason. What kind of muddies the waters even a little bit more is that there’ve been some pretty interesting studies around what they call gray areas of removal, meaning that on a given year and maybe even state to state, that gray area could be different than another state or it could shift because of policy shift. And maybe unsurprisingly is that in those gray areas of removal,

Brian (11:31.01)
Mm-hmm

Courtney (11:34.244)
Maybe I’ll…

in those gray areas of removal that the kids that were put in the faucet there, they’re gray areas. mean, not in Elzac, which Elzac has a layer of going in the faucet there, isn’t a different layer of faucet on it. So again, that’s in that sort of, it’s not.

Travis (11:39.116)
that the kids that were put into foster care fared way worse, I mean, in outcomes, which tells us that the layer of going into foster care is an additional layer of loss and trauma. you know, again, that’s in that sort of, it’s not too, you know what I mean? Like it’s looking at a very limited window of where it’s very gray, whether they should have been removed.

Courtney (11:57.924)
You know what mean? it’s looking at a very limited window of where it’s very gray and whether it should have been. So, we have to put back a little bit of course.

Travis (12:05.292)
So this isn’t to push back against, of course, safety and removals at the highest priority. But it just shows that there is so much more to this.

Brian (12:15.79)
Yeah. Well, okay. let’s, I mean, we’ve opened up with, you know, recognizing that reunification can be a multifaceted complex. It’s not as so easy as it’s always the best and right thing to do. But let’s, let’s take the angle of, let’s look at it in a positive light. Like what, what are the positives? How can we appreciate it? And so with that in mind,

As foster families or people who just care about this issue, how can we best support the birth family when they’re going through foster care?

Courtney (13:03.58)
Yeah, I kind of alluded to a little bit before, but putting yourself in their shoes, I think is just a really easy way to say these are human beings. are people that I mean, I’ve never met a parent that I didn’t feel loves their children or child deeply, just like I love my kids. Right. Even if they’ve done hard things to them, it’s like there’s something from their past. There’s some demons that they’re walking through, something that’s that’s causing that. Right. But I feel like there’s there might be one where I look at it like.

I don’t know if they really had love for that child, but other than that, these parents really do love their kids. And so coming alongside them and seeing them as individuals who are part of this equation, who you need to be a cheerleader for, I think is the best and easiest way that we can love them and look them in the eyes, make them feel like they’re heard and seen and loved by you as a foster parent. That just goes such a huge, long ways in making them feel supported.

And then they can even feel like they can talk to you about stuff. I mean, as soon as you open up that door of a relationship and you show them their humanness, they’re gonna start opening up to you. They’re gonna start welcoming you. They’re gonna start listening to your tips and ideas and then have that relationship with each other. mean, to me, it is a beautiful thing. When we started foster care, again, in Colorado, so we were licensed in North Dakota, moved to Colorado, and we got licensed again. And we told our caseworker, we want to mentor birth moms. Like that’s my goal. I wanna mentor birth moms.

Brian (14:19.875)
Okay.

Brian (14:24.654)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney (14:25.974)
I would love it if they could move into my basement. I could be like, hey, let’s do this together. Let me show you how to be a mom, a good mom. And I want to walk alongside you. That’s not doable, but I wish it was. But really to come alongside them, it is a beautiful, fun, amazing thing to be able to do.

Brian (14:42.39)
Yeah. Travis, what do you think? What have you seen her done that was important for the birth family in order to make steps towards reunification?

Travis (14:59.154)
so like in my experience, it’s, it’s, it’s not direct really. mean, it certainly stories of not reunification, not happening. In fact, that’s, that’s my own story of adoption in our family. The boys in our, that we’ve adopted, their bio mom had two chances, you know, that had a ton of support and love and they went in twice to the system. And to Courtney’s point, amazing love for her, her, her kids just never had the resources and just.

Brian (15:11.362)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (15:15.81)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Travis (15:28.482)
kind of the end of day just couldn’t put all the puzzle pieces together to make it work. You know, and it’s just like, it speaks to probably her overwhelm. And just so, I mean, that’s just the true part of this as well is just that some people even with the resources they’re given and supports of stuff, it just for the, whatever the root layers that’s leading to, you them going to care in the first place, maybe just never gets fixed, you know? And so going home doesn’t happen. I really think it comes down to what you said.

this is more general, just like, love the line, you know, it’s something like grace is the only thing in the world stronger than shame. And I think that shame is such a huge part of so many birth parents has experienced, you know, that a this happened. And then I think depending on your own trauma, like you can get stuck in almost that shame cycle of like, you can’t break out. Like I remember when we were, you know, as house parents to this group home and like so many of our kids, like where.

Courtney (16:12.132)
And

Travis (16:26.966)
Maybe their birth parents weren’t calling when they should have, or, you know, when you’re just kind of like, man, what kind of a parent are you? That, you know, A, they’re in foster care and then you can’t even call. And it’s like, and there was so much judgment for me at the time. But then later realizing also like how much of those parents was shame holding them back from calling or checking, you know, just the guilt, like almost like, you know what I mean? Like just that part of it too. So yeah.

Brian (16:53.824)
I do. Yeah. Yeah, that was interesting to me when we were actively fostering and meeting with the birth parents of, you that, you you go in thinking, these people are whatever they’re, they don’t care or they’re super tough or whatever. And you meet them and the they’re

shame, embarrassment is palpable in most of the cases that we were involved in. And so you might have a parent who’s tatted up as a gangbanger, as a drug user, dealer, who knows, you know, child welfare is like these people are, you know, hardened and

Courtney (17:25.892)
Hmm.

Brian (17:46.798)
And that all can be true about men when they when you have their kids and they’re in your meeting. Most of our experiences were that they were. You could just see full of shame. And so to do things. We would we did picnics, we invited them to.

Courtney (18:02.468)
Mm.

Brian (18:13.312)
sporting events, we invited them to church, all those things were just our attempts at trying to show that we didn’t judge them, bring some normalcy in their lives. And I don’t know that any of those things in the long run would have made the difference one way the other if they got

reunified or not, but I’ll say that God worked on us, on our hearts, and he changed us for sure of like, hey, I want you to view these people. They are made in my image. And let’s start there as the default of how you see them. And then from there, you can use discernment on if they’re safe or not.

Courtney (18:50.242)
Hmm.

Courtney (19:11.811)
Mm.

Brian (19:13.166)
So it did work on us. And I guess that’s, know a lot of people who are considering foster care, they do struggle with this reunification thing. And I think part of it just has to be allow God, allow the experience to change you.

and see what happens. So with that said, let’s unpack what does hinder reunification. I mean, there’s probably a dozen things that we could list off the top of our heads of why reunification doesn’t happen 100 % of the time. So take it away. Give me stuff that just comes to the top of your mind.

Courtney (20:10.638)
Well, there’s a couple of facts about it. There, you know, some studies show and prove that the longer time a child is spending in care, the less likely they are to be reunified. So longer time in care equals less likely to be reunified. Probably just showing that that case plan, you know, it’s not being worked out. Which is kind of funny because, you know, I’ve read that stat. Again, I’m going back to what I said earlier. I have personally seen a shift in that where I do feel like…

Now kids are in care a little bit longer and they’re giving parents extra time. And I have seen that work out positively sometimes too. So.

Brian (20:39.584)
Right? Yeah. that I, it’s interesting because I hear you Courtney on that because it’s like, well, is it the kid in the care longer? Cause the parent isn’t doing what they’re supposed to do or are they in care longer because they are doing what they’re supposed to do and they’re giving them a chance to fully recover. mean, that’s again, what Travis and I just getting done interviewing Ashley who said what she really needed was inpatient.

Travis (20:42.123)
Mm-hmm.

Travis (20:57.41)
Hmm.

Travis (21:03.948)
Yeah.

Brian (21:09.336)
care for her addiction, which took a, it was a year program and that was a, that was after a year of being outpatient. So it was full two years, but because they were willing to give her that another year in, now she’s been a successful parent for a dozen years since then.

Courtney (21:10.148)
Mm.

Travis (21:29.4)
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah.

Courtney (21:31.576)
Yeah, yeah. So I was kind of surprised, but again, when you look at foster care numbers, it’s hard because they’re always about two to three years behind the way that our numbers work and getting it all nationally. So these studies are likely done, you know, 2022 or before. So keep that in mind as well. Also, studies suggest that younger children are more likely to be reunified and older children might face more challenges in reunifying potentially because of mental health, their own mental health and

Brian (21:39.948)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Travis (21:46.466)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney (22:00.682)
likely, you know, parents’ mental health as well. And then you’ve got both those two things kind of clashing and then the emotional difficulties of, you know, they get to be 12 now and they get a say in it. So they’re 12 years old and they get to say, I don’t want to go back home. so I think that plays into that as well. But so the older they are, the less likely of them going home. But I’ve got our three latest placements, long term placements, we’re all teenage boys and they’re all reunified today. So, you know, within the last year.

Travis (22:04.792)
Mm-hmm.

Travis (22:10.156)
Right. Mm-hmm. Yep.

Brian (22:18.797)
Hmm.

Courtney (22:27.15)
So definitely see the other side of that as well. You know, again, I think it’s just hard to look at stats because you can see for both sides of it.

Brian (22:33.176)
Yeah.

Travis (22:34.188)
Yeah, yeah, that’s true. Yeah. yeah. I think additionally too, it’s things like, you know, parental substance abuse again, that, you know, is still under construction or still trying to get fixed, you know, mental health, financial instability, you know, all these things that sort of still are just there looming large, you know, maybe we haven’t got past that yet. And so like, that’s going to really hamper that reunification.

I also think, you said, Courtney, too, as we look at studies are hard because especially with child welfare, I feel like when they do studies, a lot of times nationally, at least it’s a 10 year study, but it’s so dated because it takes so long to get it all. And probably the government too, but, just, and so like, you’re looking at stuff that’s even when they’re saying like it’s new, well, it’s like the data was from like, seven to or something. But what is interesting connected to this too, is that.

Courtney (23:16.068)
And just, and so, like, you’re looking at stuff.

Well, it’s like the data was from like 2007 or 2012 or something. what is interesting connected to this too is that the re-entry was given to the FNC to take what…

Travis (23:31.466)
reentry rates give us a clue, I think too, to what’s still in play here. So I know like, looks like studies show that where the greatest reentry happens among teens, not surprising, you know, for going back into foster care and infants. So probably two of the hardest populations in some ways. And then it happens the most often like right out of the gate, which tells you then that a lot of these ones that when the kids did go home,

Courtney (23:37.924)
So I know, like, what’s that study show that we’re, uh, the greatest re-entry happens at home, to probably, you know, for going back into the population, and new things. There’s probably two of the hardest populations somewhere. And then, it happens the most often, like, right out the door, which tells you then that a lot of these ones that, when the kids did go home, the mom, dad, kids, know, showed support to.

Travis (24:01.6)
and mom and dad or whatever did, you know, showed the court enough. They truly weren’t ready, you know, and to your point, Brian, with Ashley, like kind of saying the same thing of, you know, I needed this long runway, you know, and so, yeah.

Brian (24:09.516)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (24:15.752)
And it’s tough because the longer it is, the more attached a lot of times the foster parent gets. mean, again, with Ashley’s story, people were referring back to another episode we did recently. The amazing foster parents loved that boy and the longer they had him, the more in love they were. so that’s hard, too, because the other side of reunification.

Travis (24:21.545)
Yes.

Brian (24:45.896)
is you’re doing it really well as a foster parent. You are forming bonds of attachment. You are loving this child. The child is growing attached to you. You’re seeing them thrive and you don’t want to lose that. You don’t want to lose them. You love them. And that is super, super hard. You we talk about forever families.

Courtney (25:06.68)
Hmm.

Brian (25:16.59)
And there’s for now families, you know, just be a temporary family. But ultimately you’ve got to have to be a flexible family. And it’s like, whatever it takes, maybe it’s forever, maybe it’s just for now. And I have to be willing to have as the adult have my heartbreak. So yours doesn’t have to again. And as the adults say, I know it’ll hurt.

Courtney (25:24.674)
Hmm.

Brian (25:47.162)
and but I also know hearts can heal. Not that you’ll always not feel it. it’s, mean, it’s what we’re asking people to do is profoundly hard. And that’s why I think doing this is, you know, not everybody should do it.

Courtney (25:52.524)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney (26:08.93)
Yeah. And goes back to why it does need to be there in the forefront. Like families need to realize that and recognize it from the beginning. Because again, mean, I get the anybody that’s fills out a little form on the AKB website, they go to my email address. And so at least once a week, at least once a week, I’m getting an email that’s saying, but what if I get too attached? What about reunification? Or I really just want to adopt.

Brian (26:13.964)
Yes. Yes.

Brian (26:29.58)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney (26:34.596)
And yeah, there are waiting kids. That’s saved for another episode. That is true. There are waiting kids waiting right now. But if you’re looking at going in, a lot of them are, you I want to adopt a baby from foster care. It’s like, well, that’s likely not going to happen. And here’s why. You know, and I put it in a gentle way, but understanding, like when these kids come into care, right, there’s a baby that comes into care, a one-year-old that comes into care. The first goal is going to be reunification, right? And then they have that process to walk through. And if that does not happen, then they’re going to first look for family members.

Brian (26:38.947)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (26:45.366)
Yeah.

Courtney (27:02.028)
And then they’re going to look at the foster family that currently has that kiddo, right? And like for us, like I said, when we started fostering the second time in Colorado, we were not going to adopt again. We had seven kids. We’re done. We’re not adopting. We just want to mentor birth moms. And then our first case in Colorado are two little kids, an infant and a two-year-old. And now they’re in our house for two years before they terminate parental rights, doesn’t go to reunification. And it’s like…

Travis (27:05.656)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (27:07.725)
Hey.

Courtney (27:26.964)
you’re going to adopt these two that have been in your house for two years, the one since birth, or are you going to say, go to another house? It’s really hard at that point. Not that we had to say yes, but they were part of our family at that point. But we were still, up until that two-year mark, we were expecting them to go home with mom. We really were. But people just need to know that. And it is so hard. We’ve had reunification stories that we don’t agree that they went back home. We have had wonderful, amazing reunification stories where we’ve got to walk alongside and celebrate.

Brian (27:31.948)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Travis (27:32.77)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (27:42.337)
Yeah.

Travis (27:49.75)
Yeah.

Courtney (27:56.758)
and throw a party for them, just really loving on family as well. So you just gotta know it. You gotta know that going into care and if you can’t handle that reality, it’s just not for you.

Travis (27:57.037)
you

Mm-hmm.

Brian (28:08.13)
Yeah. Well, let’s again, let’s focus on the positive for this moment. And Courtney, you’ve had the most reunifications. Julie and I worked on focusing on that, but honestly, we didn’t have very many successful ones. You’ve had three recent teenage ones. Share about as much as you can.

Travis (28:13.464)
you

Brian (28:36.096)
how those went and what do you think you guys did well that helped make that happen.

Courtney (28:45.452)
Again, it goes back to making them feel like you’re on their side no matter what, even when you’re not feeling it. I mean, there have been times when it’s like, I don’t agree with what’s going on right now. I don’t love this person really right now, but I’m still going to love them. I’m going to choose to love them. I’m going to choose to let them know how their kids are doing, telling them what’s working well in our home, encouraging them to try these things. The longest placens we’ve had recently that were here long-term, were all teenage boys.

Brian (28:50.828)
No

Travis (28:52.3)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney (29:15.36)
all about the age 14, three of them, all went home, but they were all had some really hard things going on. so walking through the mental health stuff was a big thing. And one of these cases was a youth in conflict, means it wasn’t something parents did to get them placed in care, which will again, this is another episode we need to do because I didn’t even realize all of this, what that was going on. And now it’s becoming so, so popular, but really encouraging that mom like you really can do this.

Brian (29:38.082)
Mmm.

Courtney (29:43.788)
and let me come alongside you. We sat down, we had coffee together, we had hour long phone calls multiple times a week of me filling her in on how this kid’s doing, this is what I’m trying. And then he would go home for a weekend and she would try the things that we were trying here and she was seeing success. And then, you know, it was almost a whole year process, but then when he did go home, she felt like she had the tools and it wasn’t like, we’re a better person than she was. We just had some tools that she didn’t have and we were willing to share those with her. And now,

It goes back to what Travis said, that immediacy. I’ll be honest, he went back right before Christmas and we were like, for that first month, we were expecting a phone call any day if he’s coming back. And he’s still there today, know, months later, and we still keep in contact and she still asks for my support and, you know, what would you do in this situation? And I just love that she knows that I’m still here as a resource.

Brian (30:20.952)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Travis (30:34.594)
Hmm, cool.

Brian (30:34.648)
So Courtney, like what, again, without breaking any confidentiality, what are some tools that you maybe shared with her that would apply to all sorts of parents who are like, I could use that tool. I don’t know about that. Like, does one or two come to top of mind?

Courtney (30:53.848)
I think the biggest thing with teenagers that I’ve noticed is a lot of these parents have a reactive personality, which I too have had and can easily fall back into if I don’t catch it. Meaning when a kid is thrown a temper tantrum, even as a teenager or they are just melting down, the wanting to yell back, the wanting to get in their face, the wanting to not push them around and, know, but like, get out of my way type thing. Matt, definitely. And like if you were just right.

Travis (31:13.267)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brian (31:14.516)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Match their energy. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Travis (31:18.378)
Yeah.

Courtney (31:21.942)
able to be the calm in that storm, that alone, I mean, it is game changer. And I feel like that’s something you have to really, really teach and coach over and over and over what that really looks like. And it’s okay that they go to the room and then they’ll say, well, what if they’re in the room for two hours? Then they’re in their room for two hours, you know, like just give them their space, they’re teenagers, you know? Yeah, I think that’s the most common one I would say that I help with.

Travis (31:37.944)
right

Brian (31:40.674)
Mm-hmm.

Travis (31:41.592)
Mm.

Brian (31:44.748)
Yeah, the art of de-escalation and I don’t know, do you have any like any books or anything that you like that you would recommend when it comes to that specific topic?

Travis (31:46.456)
Hmm… Yeah.

Courtney (31:58.736)
Yeah, I don’t have any specific about teens because again, that’s what I see the most. But The Whole Brain Child is a book that I love that really talks about like what’s going on in the brain in those moments. Also, Parenting with Connection talks about that connection. The only thing that I don’t like sometimes in some of the TBR type books, they really write one that’s specifically for teenagers. There probably is one. I just don’t know about it. But

Brian (32:01.772)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (32:11.917)
Yeah.

Travis (32:20.322)
Hmm.

Courtney (32:21.692)
They often talk about that time in and I get it, but teenagers, that’s often not what they want. so families, when they try to do that time in, like, I need to be right here. They need to be right here. I mean, it’s like, that’s not really what they’re saying in TBRI with connection. Younger kids, yes. But I think when we try to force that on these older kids again, it doesn’t work. And they really, they want some autonomy. They want some space, just like we do as adults. Think about your adult relationships, your spouse. When you get an argument, sometimes you just need a few minutes of heart and that’s okay.

Travis (32:32.791)
Hmm.

Travis (32:38.155)
more.

Travis (32:42.593)
Right.

Courtney (32:48.084)
That’s not necessarily putting them time out though, right? Like if they want their space, we’re willing to say, yes, you can have your space, but I’m right here. And that’s the connection piece. You can go out there. I’m going to sit out here on the couch and I’ll be here for the next two hours reading a book. And if you want to come out, I’ll be here. And that’s still that connection. it’s people, think people will take that time in thing and just take it the wrong way for teenagers.

Travis (32:48.984)
Perfect. Right.

Brian (33:07.948)
Okay. Yeah, there’s apparently, man, it is tough and it’s especially tough for people who are dealing with addiction, mental health, their own trauma, their own growing up in a dysfunctional family. They don’t have the tools. They don’t even know these tools exist. so if you’re in a space where you do have some of those advantages,

Travis (33:09.376)
No.

Travis (33:22.06)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (33:37.3)
share them, root for their success and do like Courtney did. If you’re fostering and you know that there’s a parent out there who does love their child and it’s not a matter of desire or motivation, it’s a matter of ignorance or ability and not ability, they have the ability, they just don’t know.

Travis (34:04.194)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (34:07.31)
Here’s here. Let me put it this way. When I was growing up, my dad was trying to teach me about cars and not too motivated to learn about mechanics. But I do remember one thing he told me. was just he just tried. Let me make this real simple for you. He said when a car’s not running, it’s one of three reasons there either isn’t fuel, a spark or air. And so.

It was like, okay, just like start there and see if that one of those comes clear. And I was like, okay, is there something like that for humans? And it’s like, human isn’t doing something if they aren’t running the way that they’re supposed to be there. If they’re not parenting the way they’re supposed to be, you know, it’s like, okay, it’s, it’s either they don’t know to do this thing. They don’t want to do this thing or they don’t know how to do this thing. And so it comes down to like, okay, does this parent

Want to do this thing? Do they want to be a good parent? Answer that first. If the answer is yes, then it says, OK, is it just they just don’t even know about this? What these things when it comes to common sense parenting and if they don’t know about it or then you gotta tell him about it then they can know about it and still not know how. And so as.

Travis (35:30.52)
Hmm.

Brian (35:33.268)
The healthy person in this equation, ask yourself, get curious. Don’t, you know, I love that quote from Ted Lasso who during the dart scene, he’s, you he quotes, I can’t, it’s that poet, I think, you know, the idea of don’t be judgmental, be curious. Be curious about the parents and just say, is it because they don’t want to, don’t know to, or don’t know how to.

Courtney (35:52.388)
Mm-hmm.

Travis (35:52.855)
Mmm.

Travis (36:00.682)
that’s good. I know we’re getting close to the end of this probably, but I have to grab my cord to plug my Mac in or it’s gonna… It’s gonna die like right now.

Courtney (36:00.834)
Yeah, that’s really good.

Brian (36:10.08)
OK, let’s let’s shut this down. think I think ending with Ted Lasso is great and so we’ll continue on with a few further episodes on reunification. That sound good guys.

Courtney (36:10.68)
Die on you.

Travis (36:25.344)
I’m confused, what’s happening?

Brian (36:26.254)
We’re cli-

Travis (36:28.77)
WELL

Courtney (36:30.756)
you

Travis (36:32.032)
I just gotta plug my laptop in, it’ll take a minute. I’m not…

Courtney (36:35.096)
Okay.

Travis (36:37.344)
Well, I had a couple questions. I actually have to ask you guys some. All right, I’ll right back.

Brian (36:38.094)
Okay, all right you plug you plug in I sweet eat some chocolate chips. I was ready to close this thing down It’s You got a trip it’s past noon. My stomach is growling. I need some sweets Travis is grabbing his cord You don’t edit this out I want it all in

Courtney (36:40.388)
I got a trip to pack for him ready.

Courtney (36:55.748)
We’re falling apart.

Travis (37:08.642)
Alright, getting it. I actually had something to ask you guys when we stopped crap recording too so

Brian (37:09.666)
Hahaha

Brian (37:14.478)
Hahaha

Do not edit this out. insist. Travis, Brian Edmond, who do not. This is real life.

Courtney (37:19.266)
you

Courtney (37:25.892)
He’s not here.

Brian (37:33.174)
Alright Travis, yeah. Yes, yes, and I don’t want to lose any of it. I was, Courtney needs to pack and I need to chocolate chips.

Travis (37:33.88)
All all that’s being recorded.

Travis (37:39.306)
No, we got that last of quote. was just like, I thought you were bailing on the podcast. I’m like, wow, we got to, okay.

Travis (37:48.664)
Well, let me not take you from that. Well, one thing is I wanted to ask about something I said at beginning, one of the things I wanted to ask, because sometimes stuff comes up in this conversation that as we maybe close this down, but one of the things I wanted to, or someone should ask is people that are listening, because I think reunification is still really confusing. mean, I’m, you know, there’s people that listen and go.

Courtney (37:55.78)
But one of the I wanted to add, there’s sometimes stuff.

maybe codes are found, but one thing that I want to ask, if someone should ask, people that are listening, because I think re-initiations still really continue. mean, there’s people that listen and go, because it sounds like what we’re saying too, is like those relationships that first fought biopics, and the life on life type stuff, and how helpful that is. When they go home, and different states are different, like.

Brian (38:10.669)
Mm.

Travis (38:14.37)
Cause it sounds like what we’re saying too is like those relationships to encourage, you know, bio parents and to the life on life type stuff and how helpful that is. when they go home there, you know, and different States are different, but like someone’s listening and going like, does fostering mean I’m doing like dinner with birth parents? mean, I don’t know that that’s clear. So it doesn’t, that seemed kind of relevant to like say something along that or.

Courtney (38:28.92)
Yeah.

Travis (38:43.554)
You know what mean? Like, cause if you don’t know what your involvement is with birth parents, I don’t think that’s very clear.

Brian (38:47.334)
Yeah, for sure. we might have assumed, I definitely did. assumed too much knowledge there. So yeah, maybe take it back and say, so what is normally expected of the foster parent when it comes to the relationship with the biological parent?

Travis (39:05.302)
Yes.

Travis (39:10.168)
That’s a good one. And one other one, we just for say, this can be quick, but I think this would be a great Courtney one before vacation, we got to put you to work. You just saying like, because you’ve dealt with a lot of cases that have been really tough and you’ve already kind of talked about that. But how do you compartmentalize or how do you go on both cheering for unification and dealing with some extremely hard cases where it is really disturbing and you’re still, I don’t know, maybe that’s a hard answer, but like that’s a question.

Courtney (39:10.532)
That’s

Brian (39:39.97)
Yeah, so Courtney, since you get the vacation, you have to answer these. First, what is normal? What’s normally expected of foster parents? And secondly, how do you handle it when it gets like you’re still rooting, but it’s not going well?

Courtney (39:40.771)
Yeah.

You’re

Travis (40:05.4)
us home. So who’s asking? Brian asking her?

Brian (40:08.494)
Courtney, do it. Come on.

Travis (40:10.776)
All right. All right. So I will ask since it, mean, she’s just out of the blue. We’re just gonna, okay. I will say, okay, here we go. So Courtney, I, I know that there’s a lot of listeners that, you know, brand new to foster parenting, maybe just peeking over the fence, do not, you know, still learning. So when we kind of talk about like for, um, what really works for, you know,

Courtney (40:21.598)
Courtney, I know that there’s a lot of listeners that brand new to Fox attorney.

Courtney (40:36.772)
What really works for resourcing for families and encouraging them and the parents, whether it’s on visits or how it all works. I think there’s confusion too around, a lot of people just wondering how much crossover does a foster parent, any birth parent, makes by case different, but generally, because it can be really confusing.

Travis (40:39.286)
Resourcing birth families and encouraging them and the parents, know, whether it’s on visits or how that looks I think there’s confusion to around a lot of people just wondering how how much crossover Does a foster parent any birth parent case by case is different? But generally because it can be really confusing around like I mean Do they expect us to do dinner? You know what I mean? Like so like tell us a little bit about your experience around that

Courtney (41:05.24)
Yeah, again, it is very different case by case. There are some cases where the caseworkers will tell you this, sadly, this individual, you know, might not be safe for you to be around. And we’ve had a few of those, not very many, but we’ve had a few of those where it’s like, we don’t want them to try.

to even find out your guys’ name or your address or anything about you. And so we don’t even drop the kids off for visitation. Again, those are very few and far in between. Most often, almost always, they will say to us, we welcome and want as much interaction with you as you feel comfortable as the foster parents. They put it in our lap to say, you know, and they don’t let this happen right away. It’s more, know, first kid first comes into care, they’re in our home for a little while, they start seeing, visitations.

We can drop them off. We could go walk in and say hi. I like to go in and say hi, you know, again, unless they give me a reason not to, but I like to kind of right from the get go, let them know who I am, tell them a little bit about myself. Our county does what’s called icebreakers, which I love. So it’s a meeting between us and the bio family or whomever they were removed from and we’ll sit down. It’s just us. Kids aren’t there and they just get to know us and we get to know them. And it’s a beautiful way of getting to know like, do you, how do you soothe this child?

How do you celebrate this child? How do they go to bed at night? What works well? What wasn’t working well? And it really helps us as foster families, but it also opens that door to communication and a relationship. And usually when I leave one of those, I’ll say, hey, I’m willing to give you my phone number if you’re comfortable with it. And they almost always want that because they know I’m caring for their child right now. So yeah, again, it’s often up to us. We don’t just welcome them into our home. We’ll often, if it gets to that point, we’ll start meeting in a park, or then we’ll go have dinner.

at Red Robin, we’ll go do something like that. But we have welcomed birth families into our home many times, but it’s not, it’s after some time for sure. Yeah.

Travis (42:58.902)
And then as we kind of close this down, what would you say to the people that listen and, we all are well aware, like Brian opened the podcast out rightly by talking about like safety is first. mean, safety is imperative for these children who are removed from their homes. mean, that is, you know, that has to come first. And yet with the goal of reunification, being at the forefront, also cheering that on, you know, there’s, there’s incredibly good reasons for a kid to go home to where they belong.

But how do you hold those two things in tension as a long time foster parent where you’ve seen some incredibly hard, just call it real, like abusive, awful, evil type of things. then, and not everyone’s that category for sure, but then also cheering reunification on.

Courtney (43:46.442)
It’s hard. I mean, this is the hardest question I get. And I just answered an email this morning, actually, about this exact question and just explaining like, I’m not going to pretend that it’s not real and that this is not the hardest thing there is for myself, for my kids, for our family, for even our friends who get attached to these kids. Again, we have one case where we were shocked. went to reunification. It went to reunification really quickly. And we did not agree with it. The caseworkers didn’t agree with it. Nobody. I it was like we…

Still to this day, I don’t even know how that happened. And I thankfully knew the bio mom’s name. so I’ll still, this was 10 years ago now, I’ll still look her up on Facebook and I can kind of see where the kids are at today and they’re not with mom, but I can through that see that they’re with her sister. And so I get to see that they’re still healthy and that they’re still alive. We know they’re doing well and growing up, but there are a lot of cases like we have no clue what happens to these kids. And we pray for them, we think about them, we cry over it.

Brian (44:18.126)
Hmm.

Brian (44:38.99)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney (44:43.746)
And again, this kids that have been were in our home 15 years ago, we think about, or a memory will pop up. And so I’m not gonna, you know, skirt around it saying it’s not the hardest thing, but again, going back to the heart of reunification, most of the time when we have seen it done, it has done well. And these families have worked their tails off to get their kids back. And it is so beautiful when we get to be part of that. And the more we welcome them into our homes now, you know, from the very beginning.

Brian (44:48.29)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm

Courtney (45:13.644)
if they feel that from us, even through those hard things, and you start to see that transformation in those parents. And then now you have this relationship. I guess when they go home, if they’re still willing to let you be part of their life, I mean, that’s like this added bonus versus these cases where I got it wrong a lot in the beginning with the relationship with biofamilies a lot. And my heart has completely shifted from what it was like when we first started. And those first cases, have no clue. Those are the ones I don’t really know. I have no clue where those kids are today.

Brian (45:43.266)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Courtney (45:43.64)
I have no clue what they’re up to, but the ones that I have poured into and said yes to, and I’m gonna be part of your team, they’re the ones I know. I know where they are. I know what they’re up to. I have relationship with them still to this day.

Brian (45:55.596)
Yeah, when reunification is the right thing to do, and many times it is, and when it’s done well, that you get to be a part of that, it’s a beautiful story and you are privileged and honored to play a part in that. And so is it hard? Yes, but it’s also such a good thing that I hope many of you get to experience.

Travis (46:08.536)
Hmm.

Brian (46:23.874)
that in your life that you got to play a part of reunifying a child and a parent.

Travis (46:29.89)
you

Hmm, yeah. Well said.

Courtney (46:37.54)
Well, I hope you guys will join us rest of this month. We do have the podcast that Brian was alluding to with Ashley. We actually recorded it before this, but we’re airing it after this. So this is the launch of Reunification Month and our next three episodes are all wonderful stories of reunification. You’re gonna get to hear from those moms whose kids were removed, a foster mom, and even a foster child who are well, not adult, but who was the kid in this situation. And yeah, you are in for a treat.

Brian (46:46.371)
Mm.

Brian (46:57.954)
Yes.

Travis (47:02.434)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (47:02.642)
Yes.

Brian (47:06.144)
Yes, yes. Thanks for saying that, Courtney. Man, these next few episodes that we’ve already recorded are the some of my favorite. They’re beautiful. And now you’ll and you’ll really feel what I just said, how beautiful reunification can be.

Travis (47:15.148)
Yeah, I agree.

Courtney (47:19.204)
Mm.

Travis (47:21.559)
Yep.

Brian (47:22.796)
All right, thank you guys. Adios, Courtney. All right, Travis, thanks for putting us back at kind of the…

Courtney (47:27.352)
Adios! See if I come back!

Travis (47:30.36)
Okay, we’ll check on you.

Courtney (47:32.447)
Yeah.