Episode 62 – Representing All Parties Involved in Foster Care with Ryan O’Donnell

• Ryan O’Donnell is a tech entrepreneur and former foster parent.
• He organized a record-breaking food drive during high school.
• His experiences as a foster parent highlighted communication issues in the system.
• ‘Your Case Plan’ was developed to improve collaboration in foster care.
• The app is free for families and aims to streamline communication.
• Ryan emphasizes the importance of legal representation for families in the system.
• Affordable housing solutions are crucial for youth aging out of foster care.
• The foster care system often lacks transparency, leading to poor outcomes.
• Ryan’s work aims to break the cycle of families entering the system.
• The conversation highlights the need for multifaceted solutions in foster care.

 

TRANSCRIPT:

Brian Mavis (00:00.943)
Hello to the foster friendly podcast audience. I’m your host Brian Mavis with my co-host Courtney Williams. Courtney, your adjective for today is tech savvy. Yeah, and that’s, yeah, I don’t know that it’s accurate. I’m just using it as context for today’s guests. And so if…

Courtney (00:11.31)
that’s a new one for me.

Brian Mavis (00:22.647)
Any in by comparison, maybe you’re tech savvy like anybody who can operate something more sophisticated than an Etch A Sketch. I think wow, that’s pretty good. OK, great, awesome. Well today or why we’re tech savvy is because our guests Ryan O’Donnell. Ryan is good to meet you and we’re looking forward to learning about what you’ve got going to help families.

Courtney (00:30.216)
then I’m really tech savvy.

Ryan ODonnell (00:46.608)
Good to be here. Thanks for having me, Brian and Courtney. Let’s get tech savvy together.

Courtney (00:49.548)
Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Mavis (00:51.405)
Yeah, yeah. And by the way, so yeah, for our listeners who are like, uh-oh, I don’t want to listen to this episode, it actually could have some help for you. So hang in there. So Ryan, a little bio about you that I’m again learning as our listeners learn is that you are a serial tech entrepreneur. I love serial. I, that’s great. Yes.

Ryan ODonnell (00:57.552)
Ha

Courtney (01:12.974)
That’s great.

Ryan ODonnell (01:17.163)
I like the Frosted Flakes, you know, some Captain Crunch, those are the best.

Brian Mavis (01:19.845)
Did you invent those things? That’s amazing. Okay. So you have had several tech entrepreneurial endeavors and you also are a former foster parent and you’re using technology now for good. And we’re to learn more about that today. You’re based in Raleigh, North Carolina, wherever our teammates is. And that’s how we got to learn about you. And you’re the CEO and founder of Sunlight.

and the creator of your case plan. And that’s where we’re going to be focusing a lot of our attention today is understanding that application, your case plan. So how’s that for an intro? Anything you’d like to add to that? All right, and we know your favorite cereal. Yes. Great. And so it’s good to have you here today. We’re looking forward to learning about what you’ve created that’s going to help.

Ryan ODonnell (02:04.377)
You nailed it, Brian. You know, that’s great.

Courtney (02:06.382)
Yeah.

Brian Mavis (02:17.659)
kids and families.

Ryan ODonnell (02:19.105)
Yeah, definitely. Well, you excited to be here, excited to share what we’ve been building, much like a lot of y’all’s work and everything I’ve seen from America. Kids belong and foster friendly. Like it’s born out of all the things that we faced when we were foster parents in many ways.

Brian Mavis (02:33.499)
Yes, yes, I have a tech friend who years ago he started a tech company, sold it and you know, successful and I said, boil all your wisdom down into one nutshell. Like what’s the one thing that you would want to communicate to people? And he’s, I loved his answer. He said, feel the problem before you try to solve it. And I think that’s what you

Courtney (02:34.326)
Yeah.

Ryan ODonnell (02:59.075)
Mm. Mm.

Brian Mavis (03:02.979)
you felt the problem and so you’re trying to solve it. So looking forward to that.

Courtney (03:08.874)
Yeah, before we get into that, that fun, serious stuff, let’s talk about some really fun stuff that you’ve done. through your bio, you’ve done a lot of impactful things. One of the most fun things that I read about was that you are the guineas world record holder for holding the largest food drive in 24 hours in a single location, feeding over 500,000. Yeah.

Brian Mavis (03:26.363)
And that’s really where, that’s what I really want to talk about today. Is this story? Yeah, you know what? Yeah, for our second episode we’ll do Foster Care. I want to know about this Guinness Book of World Records thing. Yeah, yeah.

Ryan ODonnell (03:32.355)
Let’s put pause on the foster care stuff. Let’s talk about food drives.

Courtney (03:33.802)
Yeah.

Courtney (03:41.87)
Yeah, so tell us about that. How did that even come about?

Ryan ODonnell (03:43.171)
Hey, look, Jesus said, take care of the widow of the orphan. He also said, feed the hungry, right? But no, I I was a high school student and was a part of a big effort at our school. had this crazy idea. I live from North Carolina. And at the time, North Carolina was one of the worst states in the country for childhood food insecurity. So we wanted to do a big food drive. And we saw that there was a world record out there.

Courtney (03:48.536)
Yeah.

Brian Mavis (04:06.213)
Hmm.

Ryan ODonnell (04:12.025)
And it was held by some group in Canada. So being some competitive high school students, we were like, yeah. Yes, yes. Yes, the Canadian segment, we were like, look, we can beat y’all. We’re down here in North Carolina. We had to raise over half a million pounds of food in 18 hours. We did it my junior year. We came up short. We only raised about 300,000.

Courtney (04:15.892)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Mavis (04:16.699)
totally smash those Canadians. And we love our Canadian listeners, by the way, but yeah, we’re still going to smash you.

Hahaha

Courtney (04:34.645)
Wow.

Brian Mavis (04:40.293)
ha ha.

Ryan ODonnell (04:40.375)
We came back the next year, we had a little more fire in our belly. We raised a little over half a million, got the record. And to this day, still has not been broken. So I’ve been asked about this a few times. If anyone wants to break it, like hit me up. I’m in for the first 50,000 pounds. I’d love to break the record again. But it was intense. It was a really cool experience.

Brian Mavis (04:43.288)
I love that.

Courtney (04:50.091)
Wow.

Brian Mavis (04:57.691)
You

Okay, how did you, okay, we are now switching our topic today, listeners. did you weigh all the food? Like, was it like, did you go to, were you at like, where you weigh trucks or something or?

Courtney (05:02.606)
Cut!

Courtney (05:06.798)
Officially.

Ryan ODonnell (05:07.513)
You

Ryan ODonnell (05:16.057)
Kind of, kind of. So our school parking lot got converted into the, you know, location of the largest food drive. We had about 18, you know, 18 wheelers, right? So Walmart was our big sponsor, Chick-fil-A. We had a group that literally loaned us all of their, you know, pallets and way stations. We had to inspect every single item of food to make sure it wasn’t expired.

Courtney (05:46.38)
Wow.

Ryan ODonnell (05:46.765)
And then we had to weigh it. And literally, I mean, you’re getting something that’s maybe like, you know, four foot by four foot by four foot, you know, cube full of food, weigh it, then load it onto a truck, load that truck 18 times. That’s how you get to over half a million pounds of food. So lots of math. We really liked math at our high school.

Brian Mavis (06:05.753)
Okay, uh-huh Wow

Brian Mavis (06:12.731)
That’s so cool. I love that story. All right. Listeners, we’re switching gears back to foster care for the Foster Friendly podcast. switching gears, you’re probably not in high school when this happens, but you become a foster parent. Is that right?

Ryan ODonnell (06:34.479)
Yeah, yeah. My wife, who I…

Brian Mavis (06:36.131)
Not unless you broke a world record as the youngest foster parent.

Courtney (06:37.806)
License.

Ryan ODonnell (06:39.577)
I don’t think they licensed 18 year olds. There’s probably a lot of reasons for that, no, my wife and I, we met in high school, both went to NC State, both got started in our jobs and bought our first house. Like a lot of foster families, we heard a presentation in our church about foster care crisis. So we signed up, did our 40 hours of training and that was 2019. So I was no longer 18 years old.

Brian Mavis (06:59.163)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (07:04.005)
Mm-hmm.

Okay, so you are young looking. So how old were you and your wife when you became licensed foster parents?

Courtney (07:09.869)
Heh.

Ryan ODonnell (07:18.361)
Let say it was like 26 or so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we like bought our first house. were, you know, thinking about starting our family at our church. was a, it was kind of a season at our church. We’re talking about giving God your first and your best. And we decided to delay having biological children a few years to put a child foster care first. And, you know, that’s, that’s kind of like how we got into it.

Brian Mavis (07:20.549)
Okay, yeah, that’s pretty young for foster parents, for sure.

Brian Mavis (07:37.573)
Mm-hmm.

Ryan ODonnell (07:48.377)
And, you know, we can talk about what happens next, but what we find is that, you know, we just put our guests on the table and just kept on asking ourselves that question over and over again. Like, so what do you flashcards do?

Brian Mavis (07:48.687)
Yeah.

Brian Mavis (07:59.181)
I love that. I love that. My daughter, that’s how she also started her family was through fostering before they had their own children. And then several of my grandchildren now are adopted. So tell us more like back to the field of pain before you solve it. What was your experience as a foster parent that got you wondering like, is there a better way to do this?

Courtney (08:15.022)
So tell us more, like back to the field of thing before you solve it. What was your experience as a foster parent?

Ryan ODonnell (08:28.125)
Yeah, well, you know, tech guy by background. So I built and sold a HR software company. I was obsessed about, know, how do we recruit people? How do we retain people? How do we onboard them effectively? And I would describe my experience as a foster parent is like living in a completely different world, right? Like tech startup by day and then like world of fact machines and snail mail. But it wasn’t, you know, nine to five is 24 seven, three 65 and

Courtney (08:28.43)
Yeah, well, know, tech guy is my background. I built a folder, which are software companies. I was obsessed about, you know, how do we recruit people, do we entertain people, how do we onboard them effectively. And I would describe my experience with Oscar Cary as like living in a completely different world, right? I my day, and then like, world of fact-fixing, snail mail. But it wasn’t, you know, nine to five. It was 24, seven, three, two, five. Yeah, and…

Brian Mavis (08:38.479)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (08:46.551)
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Brian Mavis (08:55.204)
Yes.

Ryan ODonnell (08:57.017)
Our foster son, he came to live with us summer of 2019 and lived with us for almost three years. you know, a lot of those journey moments that you never forget about. I’ll never forget like the first time we met his social worker was about a month in after he was placed in our home. And she told us, mom’s bad, dad’s unknown. He’s got no family. So would you adopt? And we didn’t get in.

do it one way or the other. We were like, whatever the kid needs. And what we found out about a year into it, it’s middle of COVID, we found out they knew who dad was all along, but no one ever bothered reaching out. He didn’t even know he had a son, little little son in foster care. He’s got a grandma like 10 minutes away, he’s a pastor for church in the same town, never reached out to. A whole family that they kind of writ off. So I was like, how do we miss this? Right? And I just got really obsessed about like,

Brian Mavis (09:29.051)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney (09:40.986)
He’s got a grandma 10 minutes away, he’s passing a church, he’s in the same town.

I like how do we miss this? I just got really obsessed about what are all of the challenges that can actually dissolve in public health. There’s a lot of big challenges like this. There’s so many things that can address.

Brian Mavis (09:53.755)
Mmm.

Ryan ODonnell (09:56.217)
what are all of the challenges that can actually be solved in foster care? Because there’s a lot of big challenges. There’s so many things you could address to make the system actually deliver for the children and families. But I got really obsessed about what are the things that I could maybe do something about where we might be able to make a big impact. And for us, was revolving door of caseworkers.

Brian Mavis (10:05.466)
Yeah.

Brian Mavis (10:19.162)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (10:23.643)
Mm-hmm.

Ryan ODonnell (10:23.737)
paper notes, no systems in place. So like what took me five minutes to find this whole family with Google and Facebook and was stuff that like the local department of social services didn’t have. So we’re just like, what ways can we build tools that would actually help solve some of the problems that keep kids stuck in care for far too long?

Brian Mavis (10:26.523)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (10:33.445)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Courtney (10:40.334)
Yeah, love that. It’s so fascinating. I’m sure all of us had these conversations before with foster parents. It’s hard, you know, you get this kid into your care and then you get attached to them and that really hard thing of wanting the right thing for that kid. And sometimes people just can’t see that, right?

But I see you, like you noticed, why would I keep holding onto this if there’s family out there? And then what can we do to solve this problem that how many kids does that happen to? Where there’s somebody right down the street that loves this kid and knows this kid and how they’re in care or, you So you take that situation and you realize you can do something about it with your expertise. And so you start up your case plan. And so this is used across multiple states.

Brian Mavis (11:24.847)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Courtney (11:38.456)
to improve communication and collaboration within the child welfare system and their cases, the parents, the children, and so that those parents have access to high quality legal representation. Tell us like more, how does that work? And again, using even your story, what helped inspire that to come to what it is today?

Ryan ODonnell (11:56.887)
Yeah, it really all got started out of the relationship that we formed with our foster son’s father. You know, when we heard about him, he had moved down during COVID to like call up each county office to try to say like, hey, like I heard I have a son in the foster care system. Like, how do I prove that? So, you he spent like three to six months just trying to get someone to return his call. And then, you know, he did the same background checks I did as a foster parent.

Brian Mavis (12:03.899)
Hmm.

Courtney (12:14.606)
Mm.

Brian Mavis (12:17.125)
Hmm.

Ryan ODonnell (12:26.807)
He supplied all of his, you know, pay stubs and proof of housing, all that kind of stuff. but ultimately it took about five years to get his son home after that. And when you think about it, it’s like, you’re a non-offending parent. You know, you don’t really even have a case plan to work, you know, but we’re to give you one anyway, just in case. And, you know, we first started building the app was just like to help keep track of visits, like, cause we were supervising those. we got to do a ton of co-parenting together.

Um, you know, we got to tell them all the things about a son, share photos, you know, so we were just building things like to help us co-parent. And then, um, as the case went on, we saw a huge opportunity to help make sure that he could navigate the system. So we’d send like text reminders for court, uh, through the app or, uh, help him communicate with his attorney or his social worker. Uh, so that’s kind of how we got started. Uh, uh, was really just like.

Courtney (13:09.422)
We saw a huge opportunity to help make sure that we could now get the system. So we sent like texturizers for port to the app for helping communicate with the attorney or the social worker. So that’s kind how we got started. It really just helping to put them on the path to keeping their families together. And then what we’ve seen is really so many different use cases. People often describe it as high charge, high cost of care.

Ryan ODonnell (13:26.317)
helping support them on the path to keeping their family together. And then what we’ve seen is just really so many different use cases. People often describe it as like my chart for foster care, because we need one place for everyone to get on the same page and actually work towards whatever the goals are for that family.

Brian Mavis (13:34.928)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney (13:38.914)
because we need one place for everyone to get on the same page and actually work towards whatever the goals are.

Brian Mavis (13:47.579)
Okay, so Ryan, let’s, I’m gonna just break it down as simple as possible. One, can you answer the question, what problem did you feel that you were trying to solve?

Ryan ODonnell (14:04.355)
Yeah, I mean, I think at the end of the day, I got so frustrated seeing our foster son being stuck in care unnecessarily. And the reasons for that were all communication issues. It was, we got a new caseworker and that person hasn’t told everyone on the case. We’ve got a parent who just changed their phone number and only one person knows that new phone number. You know, so we’ve got people not knowing when their court dates are.

Courtney (14:04.558)
Yeah, I mean, think at the end of the day, I got so frustrated seeing our father or something being stuck in care unnecessarily. the reasons for that were all communication issues. It was, we got a new face worker, and that person hasn’t pulled everyone on the case. We got a parent to just paste their phone number. And only one person knows that new phone number.

Brian Mavis (14:13.463)
Mm-hmm

you

Courtney (14:30.926)
So, we’ve got people not knowing when their portraits are. And if you don’t show up before and then get a portrait, you get stuck in there for three months before something. Okay? So I just saw all these communication issues. I was like, we’ve got to fix that. That’s easy to solve for. So, when you were creating this and then trying to create it for people beyond yourself, you were creating it to help your own focus, and I I could help a lot of other states.

Ryan ODonnell (14:33.773)
And if you don’t show up to court, then we got court delays and kids get stuck in care for like three months, six months longer. So I just saw all these communication issues and I was like, we gotta fix that. That’s easy to solve for.

Brian Mavis (14:40.283)
Okay, yep, yep.

Brian Mavis (14:47.269)
So when you were creating this and then trying to create it for people beyond yourself, you were creating it to help your own foster son, but I I could help a lot of other kids. Who ends up with, is it the foster parent who’s the primary client? Is it multiple clients as far as it’s the foster parent? It’s the caseworker, it’s the…

bio family like how’s how’s that all work

Ryan ODonnell (15:18.989)
Yeah, it’s really a platform for everyone. So we think there’s so much coordination that has to happen between so many different agencies. We were therapeutic foster parents through a private agency. So I have public agency, private agency. We’ve got parents. We’ve got GAL program. We’ve got attorneys for everyone. We’ve got the whole court system.

Brian Mavis (15:22.051)
Okay.

Ryan ODonnell (15:41.667)
So with us, really what we have is a tool where anyone can sign up and get started. It’s free for all families. So we don’t charge foster parents. We don’t charge bio parents or kinship caregivers. It’s free for CASA, GAL volunteers. And basically what we give everyone is a secure way to communicate. as a foster parent, you can get on, claim your free account. And instead of getting a Google Voice number, you can use our app.

Courtney (15:47.966)
all

Brian Mavis (15:50.789)
Mm-hmm.

Ryan ODonnell (16:09.923)
to communicate securely with your caseworker, with a bio parent, with the cost of volunteer, things like that. And then if other folks want to get on the app too, they can join. And for agencies, they can get a paid plan to manage their caseworkers or manage their attorneys to keep track of all their cases. But really it’s all about just like get rid of all the barriers to communication. So try to make it as easy as possible for people to get started.

Courtney (16:17.454)
And then if other folks want to get on the app too, they can join. And for agencies, they can get a paid plan to manage their paid workers or manage their attorneys. But really, it’s all about just like get rid of all the barriers to the patient. So try to make it as easy as possible for the person. So it’s all a road.

Brian Mavis (16:38.085)
So it’s all based around like the, if say you have multiple people involved in the child’s life, it’s probably then based around that kid’s number. Let’s say that, right? Is that, or am I like, okay, how do we know that we’re all talking about the same case?

Courtney (16:41.304)
Okay, so yeah.

Ryan ODonnell (16:57.409)
Yeah, each state’s a little bit different, you know, and, you know, every family, every placement can also be a little bit different. You know, we generally think about it from the court’s perspective, like we follow a case docket number, you know, so like there’s a source of truth in some state database as to like, who are all the parties involved? Who are their attorneys? Who’s the caseworker? You know, in some states foster parents have legal rights for information, court notices.

Brian Mavis (17:10.811)
Okay.

Brian Mavis (17:17.178)
Yes.

Ryan ODonnell (17:26.329)
Sometimes they’re a party, sometimes they’re not. So we really kind of follow each state’s like structure, but then to give a really easy way. like, you can just join as a foster parent or you can just join as a bio parent and like invite your attorney or look up your public defender, look up your cost of volunteer, things like that. And just connect with them like you would on, you know, any other platform. But in this case, much more secure than like.

Courtney (17:46.318)
and connect with them like you would on any other platform. This is much more secure and not your phone number or email. Right. I told you about agile Facebook. Can you share a couple of like mechanics.

Ryan ODonnell (17:54.081)
and not your phone number, your email or people to add you on Facebook or something.

Brian Mavis (17:56.339)
Right, right. So can you share a couple of like just anecdotal stories of how like some families use this and how it helped?

Ryan ODonnell (18:10.519)
Yeah, yeah. we, about a year old, we launched in Oklahoma first through their statewide office of family representation. So they provide all the attorneys to all the kids and all the parents in the child welfare system. So, you know, we really started off as a tool to like improve attorney client engagement, make sure people know when their court dates are, you know, make sure people know like what information do I need to provide and when do need to provide it by and who needs to get it.

you know, and how do we keep everyone on the same page? and, know, so we’ve seen like that, like just helping people show up for court and be prepared. Like that’s kind of like square one. and then there’s all the stuff that happens after court, right? Like, let’s start working the case plan. Let’s make sure you get the referrals you need to get. Let’s make sure you’re, able to know when your visits are, you know, so, you know, you can confirm your visits in the app and you can share photos in the app from the visits, right? Instead of like what happens today is.

Brian Mavis (19:09.583)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ryan ODonnell (19:09.603)
You know, some people are told the visit happening. Some people are told the business not happening, you know, and, you know, sometimes you show up to a park and no one’s there. so we try to avoid those things. You know, we’re trying to make sure people know, you know, when all the important dates are, so that, you know, they can show up, and, you know, kind of keep track on all the different items on the case plan.

Courtney (19:11.596)
Yeah.

Brian Mavis (19:17.774)
Yeah, yeah.

Brian Mavis (19:31.813)
So, and again, I’m asking some questions you’re like, that’s like a dumb question. Why does that matter?

Ryan ODonnell (19:40.313)
And it’s like one these crazy things of like the child welfare system for far too many people is about like checking a lot of boxes. And a lot of times like completing a case plan is not the same as completing a parenting capacity test, you know. But in so many ways, like we need to show that you have addressed the issues that led to that removal. And

Courtney (19:46.734)
is about checking a lot of boxes. a lot of times completing a case plan is not the same as completing a paracetamol capacity test. But in so many ways, we need to show that you have addressed the issue that led to that removal. I just think it’s just been so hard to navigate.

Ryan ODonnell (20:09.485)
You know, like, just think if the system’s so hard to navigate, and, know, you’re dealing with a handwritten note here or a text message there, like, that could be difficult for a foster parent to deal with. But for the actual biological family navigating that, it’s incredibly difficult, you know, and we spend a ton of time with them, with their attorneys, with child attorneys, and asking, like, what problems they’re facing.

Brian Mavis (20:23.237)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Courtney (20:29.95)
Yeah.

Ryan ODonnell (20:40.115)
And we hear like time and time again, stories of folks calling a phone number that has a voicemail box that’s full of sending a, a, a clean drug screen that never gets brought up in court, you know, of information that gets gate-kept, right? Where as a foster parent, I might know something that I really need the CASA volunteer, the caseworker to know, but their supervisor’s not relaying that, you know, or, you know, so we just saw so many things where

Brian Mavis (20:46.107)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Courtney (20:47.502)
sending a clean drug stream that never gets brought up in court. Of information that gets leaked to you, right? Where as a foster parent, I might know something that I really need to possibly volunteer in the case of a person else, but their supervisor’s not relaying that. We just saw so many things where, like a lack of transparency creates terrible outcomes.

Brian Mavis (20:51.97)
Mm-hmm.

Ryan ODonnell (21:09.923)
you know, like a lack of transparency. It creates like terrible outcomes for kids, right? So that’s really what we want to be able to help address.

Courtney (21:15.372)
Yeah.

Brian Mavis (21:15.459)
Right. Yes.

Yeah, so the difference would be, well, a kid could have been in care for a matter of months. Now they’re in for years because of all these lapses in communication. So I definitely see how what you’re doing could help accelerate reunification or accelerate permanency, however that permanency happens. So.

Courtney (21:40.526)
or accelerate permanency however that permanency happens. that’s great. So, question then. You mentioned Oklahoma and Oklahoma seemingly has a contract with you so that the government side of things is helping fund this work.

Brian Mavis (21:48.601)
That’s great. question then. You mentioned Oklahoma and Oklahoma seemingly has a contract with you so that the government side of things is helping fund this work. What happens to people who live in states where the government isn’t contracting with you? Is there any part of this application that can still be utilized?

by foster families.

Ryan ODonnell (22:21.019)
Yeah, yeah. Well, I really exciting to share a few announcements. So we just raised about a million dollars to expand the platform. We’re currently live in Oklahoma, North Carolina and West Virginia. And with that million dollars, we’ve got people who have signed up on our waiting list in over 30 different states.

Courtney (22:32.782)
in and North Carolina and West Virginia with that million dollars. We’ve got people who have signed up on our waiting list in over 30 different states. That’s everything from foster parents and foster volunteers to bio parents, even judges. I have chief justices in different counties who want to bring us to their communities. Is that funding that’s going help us launch those places?

Ryan ODonnell (22:41.463)
And that’s everything from like foster parents and CASA volunteers to bio parents and even judges. Like I have, I have like chief justices in different counties who want to bring us to, you know, their communities. so that funding is going to help us launch in those places. we’re basically rolling out a free plan where if you’re a caseworker or an attorney, you can use the app for free for your first 10 clients. and you know, it’s always free for the families, you know, so, you know, you can

Brian Mavis (23:05.339)
Mm-hmm.

Ryan ODonnell (23:10.265)
Join the waiting list and get started. Invite your caseworker, invite your CASA volunteer to get started from there.

Brian Mavis (23:19.419)
Okay, so we’ve got caseworkers who listen to this podcast. We’ve foster parents who listen to it. How can they say, want to be like, where do they go to say, how do get on this list? How can I start using this?

Ryan ODonnell (23:33.529)
Yeah, just go to yourcaseplan.com. You can sign up right there on the home page to either download the app if we’re in your area. You can like check to see if we’re like in your state or with your agency. And if we’re not, you can join the waiting list. And we also have like a form letter that you can send to your foster parent or licensing agency if you’re a caseworker or to your supervisor. You know, the whole platform is HIPAA compliant, super secure, a lot better than…

Courtney (23:33.806)
Yeah, just go to yourcaseplan.com. You can sign up right there on my home page. can either download the app if we’re in your area. You can like check to see if we’re in your state or with your agency. And if we’re not, you can join the waiting list. And we also have like a form letter that you can send to your foster parent, a licensing agency, if you’re a caseworker or a Jewish supervisor.

Brian Mavis (23:37.955)
Okay.

Courtney (24:01.202)
Yeah. And just all the people involved in it. I live in a small county, foster her parent, and I just got a phone call last week from a guardian on Blyton asking me about a kiddo. And I was like, he hasn’t been in my home for two months now. And she’s like, oh, I wasn’t informed. I’m like, what? You’re the GAL. How do you not know this kiddo’s not even in my home anymore?

Ryan ODonnell (24:01.459)
sending random text messages or Google Voice. So we try to make it easy for people to get started with it.

Brian Mavis (24:04.631)
Awesome. Yeah, great.

Brian Mavis (24:19.343)
You

Ryan ODonnell (24:22.807)
Yeah. Yeah.

Courtney (24:26.222)
So yeah, I totally see the benefit of being able to be, like I said, we’re a small community and we’re having these lapses in communication, but to be able to have a place like that. And then we also, just interviewed, we did a reunification series in June and we interviewed a mom whose kids were removed and she told us, she’s like, I didn’t even know what my case plan was. I didn’t even know what it was I was supposed to do to get my kids back. And she’s like, if I had known that from the very beginning, I could have been working on that.

Ryan ODonnell (24:34.286)
Yeah.

Brian Mavis (24:40.133)
Mm-hmm.

Ryan ODonnell (24:46.361)
it.

Yeah.

Ryan ODonnell (24:52.853)
Yeah.

Courtney (24:53.442)
from the get-go, but I didn’t even know. Like was not informed for so long what I had to do to get my kids back. Like it just breaks my heart.

Brian Mavis (24:57.115)
Mmm.

Ryan ODonnell (24:59.904)
Yeah. You know, I think we have this, uh, you know, feeling as foster parents, I know, like, at least in a lot of the like Facebook groups I’m in, you know, these bio parents, they just got to work their case plans, you know, and like, there’s a lot of presumptions in that statement, that they have a case plan that that caseworker has actually walked them through it, that there are actually referrals made to providers. I mean, we’re seeing some crazy stuff. I mean, we

Brian Mavis (25:01.179)
Mm.

Ryan ODonnell (25:27.725)
We have now reached thousands of families and it’s just crazy to see how many times a family needs a referral for a service. And let’s say there’s like three to six months before the next court date. A good caseworker is making that referral within a week after that court date. A bad one. And unfortunately, far too many. It’s the week before the next court date.

Courtney (25:41.902)
a good caseworker is making that referral within a week after that court date. A bad one. And unfortunately, far too many, it’s the week before the next court date. So you just lose like six months and the waiting list is also six months. know, so like, it’s really unfortunate. But you know, that’s the kind of thing that, know, good software can shine a light on those things.

Brian Mavis (25:55.227)
Mm-hmm.

Ryan ODonnell (25:56.089)
So you just lose like six months and the waiting list is also six months. know, so like, it’s really unfortunate, but you know, that’s the kind of thing that, you know, good software can like shine a light on those things and help share with everyone involved. Like what’s really happening here? Is this a family that is working really hard and the deck stacked against them? Is this a caseworker that, you know, might be burnt out and needs some support?

Brian Mavis (25:59.547)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Courtney (26:11.502)
and help share with everyone involved. What’s really happening here? Is this a family that is working really hard, do you expect that against them? Is this a caseworker that might find out and use them to support? Is there a placement of a stable, unstable? Just like, if there was actually a happening, would make the best decision? Yeah. And I just, love hearing, you go back to what I said before.

Ryan ODonnell (26:25.389)
You know, is this a placement that’s stable, unstable? You know, it’s just like, get to what’s actually happening so that we can make the best decision with the best data.

Courtney (26:39.372)
you obviously have, you’re an advocate for the kids, but also for the birth parents. And that’s just not seen across the board as much as it needs to be right now. So not saying that all cases should go to reunification, but just the more we can advocate for the families and be on their side and be part of a team and let them feel that from us, the better the kids are going to feel we’re advocating for them as well, usually, right? When they’re wanting to be back with their family or family they don’t even know like in your case. So yeah, I appreciate that.

Ryan ODonnell (27:00.782)
Yeah.

Ryan ODonnell (27:05.926)
Yeah, I think there’s a great, you know, all of these cases are unique. And I was talking with a judge last week and it was, you know, we live in the gray area, right? And we want to be wrong as, as, the least times as possible, right? We’re trying to avoid the missteps, right? And we’re going to get it wrong on both sides. But if we can minimize that, that’s, that’s really one of the big goals. And,

Brian Mavis (27:31.183)
Mm-hmm.

Ryan ODonnell (27:32.921)
I had heard from one attorney, he put it really well. That’s the like family preservation is unique to that family. And that should be directed by that family, by that parent, by that child. Some children don’t want to go home to mom or dad. They want to go home to grandma or their aunt or their uncle. Some know exactly which relatives they don’t want to go back to. And we should like know who those people are. We should listen to them, right? You know, some families, they’re okay with their children staying with

Courtney (27:50.49)
know exactly what your relatives don’t want to do. And you should know who those people are and listen to them, right? Some families, they’re okay with their children staying with a non-relative that they have a great relationship with. And I think when you strip out some of the factions of different groups, you get to what’s best for that family.

Ryan ODonnell (28:01.633)
a non-relative that they have a great relationship with. And I think, you know, when you kind of like strip out some of the, you know, factions of different, you know, groups, you kind of get to like, what’s best for that family and has everyone been heard? And that’s kind of where I think we can hopefully shine a light on.

Brian Mavis (28:22.713)
I love that sensitivity to that because yeah, it seems like too much has been applied to one size fits all solutions. that I think you articulated really well that every family has got some unique things going on that allow for the best possible outcome if you pay attention to those uniquenesses.

Courtney (28:47.098)
So before we close this out, you’re also involved in putting some time and energy into affordable housing solutions, specifically in understanding that foster care is that pipeline to homelessness oftentimes. So tell us a little bit more about that, that work and the impact you’ve seen through it.

Ryan ODonnell (29:04.665)
Yeah, it’s crazy how we stumbled into this. For the backstory here, we ended up buying a house for our foster son’s dad because they wouldn’t reunify because they didn’t like where he was living. And they told him he needed to have a two-bedroom with no roommates, with a year-long lease that he could afford, where he could make three times the rent. So you could do the math, and he wasn’t living in New York City.

Courtney (29:33.216)
Impossible.

Ryan ODonnell (29:34.329)
You know, or, or, you know, LA County, he was living in kind of a more rural suburban part of North Carolina, you know, and he was working at a restaurant and it was literally cheaper for us to buy a place, uh, fix it up than to find a place and like, you know, where, he wouldn’t be able to necessarily pay for it. So, you know, we just thought there was a really interesting opportunity from a real estate side of, um, you know, could we help.

subsidized properties to give youth and parents kind of affordable housing solutions that make it easier to reunify or easier to get started on the path to independence. And there are two federal programs that support this, the Family Reunification Voucher Program and the Fostering Youth to Independence Voucher Program.

which if anyone’s listening and they don’t have those in their area, she totally try to figure out how to bring those there. but what we found, I talked to our local, child welfare director and, you know, we’re talking about all the different things we could fix. And she just says like, Brian, we’ve got dozens of kids who have aged out of the system. They’re now young adults. We helped them get this voucher. It took them six months to get it. It pays above market rates. It’s guaranteed for three years.

and they can’t find housing. Like no one will rent to them because they have to accept the voucher. So would you? So I started talking to all my friends who kind of work in the real estate world. said like, is there something we could do here? And kind of formed a little group together of folks that are trying to increase the supply of housing and available reform of foster youth and families with these voucher programs. And it’s really neat. I we got started, had…

The first one was we had a four bedroom house that two moms who had aged out of the system and were at risk of CPS involvement, we were able to get them housing that was a mix of paid for by these vouchers and then private donors and moms pay for themselves too. And then we’ve seen some other really cool stories of how folks are having, you know,

Courtney (31:36.386)
and throughout this 60-day-long ball run. We were able to get them housing that was mix of pay-for-buy, free doctors, and then private donors, and moms pay for it and stuff, too. And then we’ve seen some other really cool stories of how they started having their churches help with down payment assistance.

Brian Mavis (31:41.765)
Hmm.

Ryan ODonnell (31:57.421)
their churches help with down payment assistance, covering the emergency funds kind of things to help families actually get the housing that they need or to help youth furnish their first apartment. So it’s been really interesting to see. And we think about how much does it cost to keep a kid in care for a few years versus if you’ve got a

youth in the system who’s recently aged out, if we can help them get housing, that’s the foundation for them to help get them get a good education, good job, prevent future involvement in the child welfare system and hopefully break that cycle for so many families. One generation was in the system and then their children are also in the system. So if we can break that and not be a third generation, that’s really the-

Courtney (32:44.334)
So many families, one generation within the system and then their children also in the system. So if we could break that and not be a third generation, that’s really the goal of system. That’s wonderful. I just wanted to point out for our listeners that you are a great example of a person.

Ryan ODonnell (32:56.109)
the goal of some of this housing work that we’ve been doing.

Brian Mavis (32:57.561)
Yeah, well that’s wonderful and I just want to point out to our listeners that you’re a great example of a person who is using what they know and just trying to apply it to ways to help kids who have been in care or have aged out of care and to our listeners there’s ways that you’ve been

your experiences that you have, there are gifts that you have that can be applied in unique ways that can benefit children in ways that don’t fit the normal template. And so whether it’s technology or it’s making blueberry muffins, like something that you can do that can help a child feel like they have hope and

Courtney (33:40.43)
So whether it’s a biology or maybe you’re very much like something you can do that can help a child feel like they’re not focused on. So thank you, Ryan, for being a great example of Yeah. So Ryan, we always like to ask our guests to answer this question.

Brian Mavis (33:54.169)
So thank you, Ryan, for being a great example of that.

Ryan ODonnell (33:59.459)
I appreciate that.

Courtney (34:07.264)
or finish the sentence, what kids in foster care really need is.

Ryan ODonnell (34:13.817)
I’m a little biased because I’m about to go to a children’s law conference right after this. I just think at the end of the day, children need all of the supports to have a safe and thriving life. But one of the supports that is all too often missing is high quality legal representation. We can pass all the policies. can go to our respective legislatures and pass bills. We can have…

Brian Mavis (34:18.596)
you

Ryan ODonnell (34:43.171)
program policy recommendations. But if you don’t have an attorney who can fight for your legal rights, you don’t have those rights. And when we are in those courtrooms, that’s the one thing I wish that all kids had is, and their families, someone who’s gonna fight for them, who’s gonna know them, who’s gonna get to know them, who’s gonna really fight for what they want. And we’re making some good strides on that.

But that’s the number one thing in my mind. It’s kind of a weird answer, but it’s one of the things where I think we historically have not done a very good job of supporting them that way.

Brian Mavis (35:24.891)
That’s so good. Yeah, we asked that question of so many of our interviewees and we get a lot of great answers. And I think I don’t think I’ve heard that one before. And I just, I really appreciate it. love, I love the variety of answers. mean, if we could have all those things be realities to all the answers that people have given. But man, that’s, that is,

Definitely a unique answer, but I really appreciate it.

Courtney (35:56.916)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Ryan ODonnell (35:58.233)
If y’all could wave the magic wand, how do y’all answer it? I always get like, what’s y’all’s favorite answer that you’ve seen?

Brian Mavis (36:01.147)
.

Courtney (36:04.982)
It is, I think to me the thing is, people always ask me, friends, family members, people that are getting into foster care, you hear about the system and the system’s so messed up and what do we need to change? And I’m like, it’s not just one easy little thing or it’ll be changed. So I feel like we hear all these answers and they’re all often the things that need to be changed. Better training, better legal representation, better quality of homes, better help for biofamilies.

Brian Mavis (36:05.947)
you

Brian Mavis (36:12.132)
Okay.

Courtney (36:32.979)
the things we hear, it’s like all of that together. It’s not one simple, simple thing.

Brian Mavis (36:35.171)
Yes, yeah.

That would be my answer too, yeah. I appreciate the complexity and that there is not a silver bullet. There’s a multifaceted approach, but I’m so glad you mentioned this one because I think it’s been one of the missing ones. It’s like a puzzle we’re putting together and we’ve got this really significant piece. I mean, it might be one of the corner pieces and we’re like, where is that piece? And you just said it, so thank you.

Ryan ODonnell (36:51.817)
Echo.

Courtney (36:56.5)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brian Mavis (37:04.035)
Alright, well Ryan, I never know how to sign off without it being awkward, but today I’m going say adios. Mucho gusto. There you go. Good job.

Courtney (37:10.572)
Adios.

Ryan ODonnell (37:13.248)
Adios, zynaar, au widessen, goodbye.