Episode 85 – How to Keep Going as a Foster Mom: Encouragement and Inspiration with Jamie Finn

• Jamie Finn is a well-known advocate in the foster care community.
• Foster care can significantly impact biological children in positive ways.
• Self-care is crucial for foster parents to avoid burnout.
• Foster parents need to feel supported and seen in their roles.
• The goal of foster care is often reunification, which can be challenging for foster parents.
• Children in foster care need families, not just temporary homes.
• Every moment spent with foster children can have lasting effects.
• Foster parents should be trauma-informed to better support the children in their care.
• Community support is essential for the sustainability of foster care.
• The journey of foster care is filled with both challenges and rewards.

 

TRANSCRIPT:

Brian Mavis (00:00.93)
Hello and welcome to the Foster Friendly Podcast. I’m your host Brian Mavis with my co-host Courtney. And Courtney, today we have in the foster care world a celebrity. I mean if this were a podcast about gymnastics, this would be like interviewing Simone Biles. so, Jamie Finn, and so for those of you who know about foster care, you probably have heard of Jamie Finn. So she’s a big deal.

Courtney Williams (00:13.487)
Yes.

Jamie (00:19.801)
Hahaha

Courtney Williams (00:19.847)
you

Brian Mavis (00:28.866)
Jamie, welcome to the podcast. Yes. Right? Yeah, we’re talking about the Oscars today and we’re interviewing an A-lister. you’re big deal and I’ll make sure your kids know it.

Jamie (00:31.732)
Wow, what an intro. Could you just follow me around maybe especially when my kids are around and you could just give that intro.

Courtney Williams (00:33.285)
Beautiful.

Yes.

Jamie (00:42.656)
Yeah.

That was fun.

Courtney Williams (00:45.871)
Yeah.

Jamie (00:48.384)
Well, I’m really happy to be with you guys. thanks. They won’t believe you. But I’m happy to be here. You guys, you do such great work. And so it’s really a privilege to get to talk with you today.

Courtney Williams (00:53.293)
Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Mavis (01:03.618)
Thanks. Well, for those of you who don’t know who Jamie is, just a little bit some of the factual highlights is that Jamie is the author of a bestselling book called Foster the Family. And she also has a book that we’ll be talking about little bit today called Filled, 60 Devotions for the Foster Parent’s Heart and a children’s book. Maybe we’re talking about that. We’ll see what we’ll talk about today.

God Loves Kids, a gospel-centered book about foster care. And she’s the founder and president of Foster the Family and founder of The Field Gathering. She also has a very popular social media account, which I’ve heard of social media before, so I think that’s a big deal. So I’m one year away from a boomer, so.

Courtney Williams (01:56.647)
Thank

Brian Mavis (01:58.926)
Congratulations on your big social media account. then most importantly, yes, Jamie is the mother to seven children through foster care adoption and through birth. And she lives in New Jersey with her husband, Alan. So Jamie, what did I miss? What else would you want to share? Wow.

Courtney Williams (01:59.577)
Yes.

Jamie (02:02.88)
You’re very impressed.

Jamie (02:17.85)
You got it all. You can follow me around with your celebrity intro and read my bio and then everyone will know all they need to know.

Courtney Williams (02:18.481)
Yeah.

Brian Mavis (02:23.878)
Yeah. Yes. Okay. Well, I’ll make sure everybody, yeah, you feel good about yourself and everybody else feels good about you too. So that’s my gift. Yeah.

Courtney Williams (02:25.381)
Yeah.

Jamie (02:32.83)
Hahaha!

Courtney Williams (02:36.165)
Yeah, I love it. Well, Jamie, as we kick this off, why don’t you tell us, how did you guys get into fostering from the get go and how long ago was that?

Jamie (02:44.544)
Yeah, yeah. So we’re coming up on 11 years in our foster care journey. And, you know, I like to say my husband was a reluctant foster parent. he, yeah. And the facts here, the actual statistic is that 99.9 % of couples have that same story, where the wife is like, well, and you’re in the 0.001%, but it does happen.

Brian Mavis (02:54.946)
Hmm, wonder what that’s like.

Courtney Williams (02:57.979)
Thank

Brian Mavis (03:07.157)
Uh-huh, uh-huh.

Courtney Williams (03:07.567)
Mine’s the opposite, which is weird.

Brian Mavis (03:10.22)
Hehehehehe

Jamie (03:14.368)
But yeah, so I came to him and just said, there’s this need and it’s on our street, like it’s in our neighborhood. I always had this kind of, there’s need in the world and others and over there kind of mindset. And then the reality of there are kids in my kid’s school, there are kids on our street. And so I came to him really with this kind of bleeding heart mentality and he was like, well, I…

Brian Mavis (03:22.199)
Hmm.

Brian Mavis (03:41.026)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (03:44.756)
believe that this is how we should spend up our life, even if I don’t desire it, even if it’s not something I’m enthusiastic about, it’s something that I believe is the right thing. And so we had a deal of one kid one time, and that was 30 kids, four adoptions, 11 years ago. And it was pretty soon into it that his heart really starts

Brian Mavis (03:52.078)
Mm-mm.

Brian Mavis (03:58.082)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (04:02.956)
Mm-hmm

Brian Mavis (04:09.314)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (04:14.27)
started to open to the kids and their families and their needs. And I think the reality for a lot of us who come into this foster care journey is once you see, you can’t unsee. And once your heart is open to the need and the faces and the stories and not just sort of the numbers and the reality that foster care out there exists, but like, these are precious kids and families.

Brian Mavis (04:28.76)
Yeah.

Jamie (04:44.19)
It’s hard to ignore. And so it has been our life for the past 11 years and will be for the foreseeable future.

Courtney Williams (04:45.606)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (04:54.146)
Yeah, a lot of people, we do encourage people to try to take their next best step, even if it’s a small baby step. And sometimes you do that and you find out you stepped onto a moving sidewalk and you’re going like 30 kids later, four adoptions later. So yeah, take those steps and one step might just lead to all sorts of things.

Jamie (05:00.116)
That’s Yep.

Jamie (05:06.994)
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah.

Jamie (05:18.25)
Right.

Brian Mavis (05:19.31)
We’ve got, this is a question we get often. We’ve addressed it before, but it’s so important to make sure people always get a chance to hear and also to hear other experienced voices about this question. So one of our most common questions people have is, okay, you’ve entered into this, your husband was reluctant, but now his heart is wholly in it. But what about your kids, your own biological kids? Tell us their journey.

Jamie (05:44.16)
Mmm.

Brian Mavis (05:48.718)
when you were going through this wondering and saying this to your husband, where were your kids at in the process? How old were they? And then, and now 11 years later.

Jamie (06:00.724)
Yeah, yeah, so my kids at the time were two and five. And within our circles and our church community, there were a lot of families who kind of raised their kids and then were like, okay, now we want to adopt. And so that was really the only model that we had seen was this kind of like you get done raising your family and then you’re like, now we have space. And so it was completely…

Brian Mavis (06:05.07)
Okay.

Brian Mavis (06:20.984)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (06:27.712)
completely out of sort of the realm of what we knew family could do. And that was definitely one of our big fears. How is this going to impact our kids? We know that there are kids out there who need a family and we want to serve them. But what we know most of all is that we have a responsibility to love and protect and do best by our kids. And so it was this like tension of how do both of those realities exist at once? How do we

Brian Mavis (06:32.002)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (06:36.706)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jamie (06:56.538)
love and protect and prioritize our kids, but also not turn a blind eye and close our doors to the kids who need us. so for us, it was this balance of faith of we believe this is what we’re supposed to do. And so we are going to move forward in this. asking questions about what our family could bring to the table to a child who needed us.

that was going to still be protective of our children. So for us at the beginning, that looked like making sure that what we said yes to was, at the beginning it was younger than our kids. There were certain sort of stipulations. Now I’ll say this, what we learned is that there were really good things in the really hard things for our kids.

Brian Mavis (07:30.68)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (07:40.856)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (07:50.958)
Hmm.

Jamie (07:51.016)
And so what started as very protective and very like, is all we can say yes to, really expanded far beyond anything that we thought it would. Because what we learned was that even the hard parts of this journey was bringing about really good things in our kids. That they were learning about sacrificial love. That they were learning in this safe and protected way about

Brian Mavis (08:01.912)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (08:11.416)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jamie (08:17.886)
the realities that other kids, that other people walk through. They were learning that the world doesn’t revolve around them, that it’s not about like their happiness and their sports and extracurriculars, that actually, even as kids, they can begin to live a life that’s others’ focus, that sees life as like a mission and not just something that we’re kind of walking through for our own happiness.

Brian Mavis (08:36.696)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (08:45.478)
And so we just saw like, this is going to shape our kids in some hard ways. It’s going to bring in grief, loss, interacting with some really hard behaviors, the system being in our home. There’s going to be hard, but do we believe that even those hard things can be formative for our kids in a beneficial way? If we’re looking to protect them, then…

Brian Mavis (08:50.434)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (09:12.736)
And protect doesn’t mean make sure that their lives are all just like happy and wonderful. But if we’re going to protect them, then do we believe that these other parts that might make life a little bit harder are actually part of what’s going to make them who they should be and really the best sort of versions of themselves.

Brian Mavis (09:17.806)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (09:35.395)
Yeah, I mean, that is an and a parenting philosophy. And I think, I mean, it’s not a common one, unfortunately. I think it’s one that Courtney and I share as well. And we went into it knowing that our kids would be impacted and we believe that it was going to be hard things that was going to impact them in a positive way. And we were, for us, I mean, there were times when my wife and I were like, okay, that’s the last one.

Courtney Williams (09:35.942)
I love that.

Brian Mavis (10:02.614)
I, know, and then our kids would be like, let’s do it again. we’re like, really? my gosh. Yeah. And then our girls, when they had to do an assignment, like give a speech or write an essay, they’d always write on being a foster sister and they get, was an easy a. And so yes.

Jamie (10:07.104)
Yeah, it’s very true. Yeah. Yeah.

Courtney Williams (10:08.484)
No. No.

Courtney Williams (10:17.998)
Yeah.

Jamie (10:19.122)
That’s right. My daughter just did her college application. And I was like, this means like one of my blog posts. This is just you talking about the heart of foster care and how it’s been beautiful. But yeah, and I know your daughter is foster adopt at least one of them I know as a foster adoptive mom, my daughter is going for social work to be a trauma therapist. Like, that’s the fruit I’m talking about our kids might say like,

Brian Mavis (10:27.168)
Alright.

Courtney Williams (10:27.366)
Yeah.

Brian Mavis (10:30.614)
huh. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Mavis (10:36.482)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes.

Courtney Williams (10:44.762)
Yes.

Jamie (10:46.578)
Ooh, my childhood was not all roses. And there were dynamics that were hard. And the fruit of that, the fruit of a daughter who’s living the mission and a fruit of a daughter who wants to walk with people in their trauma now, I think it speaks for itself and how it’s played out in our lives.

Brian Mavis (10:49.453)
Yes.

Brian Mavis (11:03.746)
Yes. Yeah, so, yeah, to parents out there in this world and people like Jamie and I say Courtney and I are on her side as well. We believe that having your own kids exposed, I don’t know if that’s quite right word, but exposed to other kids who have had hardship and having them learn about that world, learn about.

empathy and compassion, go through hard things is a great thing for them, formative. And so if you’re wondering if foster care is going to impact your kid, yes, it is. And so, but we believe, even though could be hard, hard and good are often in the same world, yeah.

Jamie (11:45.76)
That’s right.

Courtney Williams (11:46.534)
him.

Jamie (11:55.582)
That’s absolutely it. Yeah. Yeah. And you learn that definitely in foster care. Nothing is only one thing. It is always the both and of it for the kids and their families and us and for our kids.

Brian Mavis (12:04.77)
Yeah, nice.

Yeah, well put. Yeah.

Courtney Williams (12:10.636)
Yeah, very much so. Well, speaking of kids, you recently released a book, God Loves Kids, a gospel centered book about foster care. Tell us about the book. Tell us about your drive behind writing the book and your hopes for it.

Jamie (12:25.448)
Yeah. Yeah. So as a person of faith, I wanted a book for my own kids that kind of had this like full picture of what foster care is that was trauma informed, that was had a compassionate approach to first families and biological parents and the workers and judges and everyone and pulled in this sort of like meta big picture narrative.

the fact that like, yeah, we’re all in these individual stories. We’re all walking through our own stories. And there is also this big overarching story of God’s story and that he loves kids and that he has a plan for them. And my hope is that it kind of lifts all of our eyes out of or above just the heart that we see.

that it lifts our eyes to the bigger story that’s going on because the reality is we cannot promise any ending to a child entering our home or ourselves or our biological kids or anyone. And so the question for me was what is a truth that applies to every kid in every situation? know, God Loves Kids is not the most creatively titled book ever.

Brian Mavis (13:22.255)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (13:34.04)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (13:37.486)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (13:46.894)
Hmm.

Courtney Williams (13:51.118)
Yeah.

Jamie (13:51.648)
And I felt like it was really important that the message could apply to every kid in every situation with every ending. That this is the big story as you walk through the hard and broken parts of your story. We want to help you understand it. We want to help you see the people that God placed in your story to love and protect you. But we also want to lift your eyes sort of above it to see the God who is above it and the God who loves you through all of it.

Courtney Williams (13:57.24)
everyone.

Brian Mavis (13:59.043)
Yeah.

Jamie (14:20.52)
So that’s the heart behind the book. was for my kids and then for any other kid who is impacted by foster care, whether that’s being in foster care, being in a foster family or just the reality that we want all kids to be sort of foster fluent. Like we want all kids to understand a little bit about the experiences of kids who are in foster care. So I hope it serves kids in that.

Courtney Williams (14:21.03)
Hmm.

Brian Mavis (14:25.07)
Hmm.

Courtney Williams (14:45.934)
Yeah. And it is. It’s a great book. It is a great one. I have it. And I do love how you pointed that out because

Brian Mavis (14:46.956)
Yeah, that sounds like a great book. Yeah. And it’s, yeah, yeah.

Courtney Williams (14:56.322)
I’ve overseen the resources at America’s Kids Belong. It’s one of my jobs. And I get books sent to me. I buy books. I used to be a school teacher. I love children’s books. I’ve got a ton. But I get a lot of books in the mail from people that want us to promote them. And they do have a very specific ending. And it’s hard for me because I’m like, I can’t read that to my kid in care in my home. I can’t read that even to my own kids. But I don’t want them to have this mindset of this is how it’s going to be. And so I love the books that have like the focus like yours, where there’s like a big truth.

Jamie (15:05.011)
Okay, yeah.

Jamie (15:12.16)
Mm.

Jamie (15:15.63)
that’s right. Yeah.

Brian Mavis (15:15.95)
Mmm.

Brian Mavis (15:21.464)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (15:25.908)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Williams (15:25.958)
but it’s not something that’s gonna make these kids think something that might not go that way. Then it adds some more trauma, know? Sometimes I don’t think the authors recognize that that could be hurting kids more than it is helping the weak. So what else? How do you see other people using this book, whether it be churches, schools, individuals, how would you see people using it?

Brian Mavis (15:29.09)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (15:37.268)
Yeah, yeah, that’s right.

Jamie (15:47.668)
Yeah, mean, churches and schools, want every time my child enters a space for there to be compassion for their story. And hopefully as schools and churches become more trauma-informed, trauma-sensitive, we see that from those around them, you know, in teaching positions and care positions, but also just for kids to learn compassion for other kids. I mean, that has been the great gift that I’ve seen

for my biological kids and my adopted kids who’ve been with me for 10 years, just that like they see someone and they look for their story. And they look for the parts of their story where there might, they use words like that person is struggling or that person was having a hard time. they look for the more invisible parts of someone’s story. And so I think when we help kids who

know, kids like ours who would be sort of suburban middle-class kids who might not be exposed or rub against the the heart of other people’s stories for them to be exposed to it in a really, you know, safe and nuanced way so that when there are kids who come into their lives, who have experienced foster care, that there is a little bit of a foundation for that experience and that there’s compassion.

for what they’ve gone through and that really everyone will have the hope of the fact that God loves them and is writing a big story for them.

Brian Mavis (17:25.262)
Okay, Jamie, switch topics a little bit. One of the things that we were trying to figure out with AKB was trying to solve kind of two problems and see if we could do it with one thing. And so one of the problems we were trying to solve is knowing that foster parents were saying, this is really hard, so hard that I’m going to quit. And then another problem was lots of families saying,

Courtney Williams (17:25.904)
Beautiful.

Jamie (17:50.773)
Yeah.

Brian Mavis (17:53.593)
We really care about this issue, but we’re not in a stage or place where we can foster, but we want to help some way. So we came up with this program called Foster Friendly, which was targeted to businesses, then churches, and then expanded to a whole foster friendly communities. But it was a key question that we were pondering that kind of put it all together. And the question was, what does an ideal community look like for a

Jamie (17:57.738)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (18:07.188)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (18:21.88)
families and kids who are in foster care. And so I want you to, you know, we’ve come up with our own answers, but we keep hearing other people say things. like, let’s add that. what would you think, what would, imagine where you live, what would it look like to have an ideal community for families and kids?

Jamie (18:25.141)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (18:33.812)
Mmm.

Jamie (18:39.197)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (18:47.336)
Yeah. Yeah. So I think part of it is infrastructures and resources and systems and all of that. And that is where government and schools and all of those can come in and better support families. But let’s put that aside for a minute, even though I think that’s deeply important for a person who is listening to this. I think the question isn’t like some theoretical what

Brian Mavis (19:03.406)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (19:16.562)
infrastructures would support families, but as an individual, how can I walk alongside an individual family? And I think when we have this approach, you I love just viewing sort of foster care as like mission work. And in mission work, you have those on the front lines, and then you have those kind of bringing supplies, bringing support, bringing prayer, bringing encouragement.

Brian Mavis (19:25.88)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (19:34.254)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (19:39.438)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (19:42.528)
and sort of holding up the arms of those who are on the front lines. And I think when we step away from the big picture systemic stuff and look just we’re people, how can I love the people at the front lines? Because I have benefited from systemic things. I’ve benefited from resources and programs, but what I benefit from the most

is the person who checks in with me on a court date and asks how I’m doing. The person who invites my child who is going to bring a bit of chaos into their home over for a play date and knows that they need to be watching and involved the whole time. The person who goes the extra mile in seeing my child at church and

Brian Mavis (20:13.55)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (20:29.549)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (20:37.072)
welcoming them into their space. The person who shows up with a meal or flowers or cookies when a child goes home, like that is what offers sort of the sustenance to keep going, to feel strengthened, to feel encouraged and like I’m not alone. And so I think if people just view themselves as a resource and use up their energy to love families, it makes a huge difference.

Courtney Williams (21:07.782)
Amen. totally agree.

Brian Mavis (21:08.054)
Yeah, it’s got to be relational. Yeah, that’s huge.

Courtney Williams (21:13.028)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I know people ask me all the time, like, do you guys keep doing this? It’s been so many years. And my first answer is our kids, because our kids do just help rejuvenate us and support us and love us and love the kids in our home. And they just do a great job. But then it’s our community. It’s like those people that you’re talking with, individuals who really get to know what’s going on behind closed doors in our house, who come behind us, who check in. Those are the things that keep us going. But also just as a…

Jamie (21:24.394)
Sure.

Jamie (21:33.514)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (21:36.11)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (21:40.232)
Yeah. Courtney, how long have you been foster parents?

Courtney Williams (21:44.102)
10th monthly, 17 years.

Jamie (21:45.926)
No way. Wow. You’ve been going a long time.

Courtney Williams (21:49.708)
Yes, yeah, it’s through a few things.

Jamie (21:53.362)
Yeah, sure. I can only imagine with that long. That’s amazing. Love it.

Brian Mavis (21:53.537)
N-haha

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Courtney Williams (21:59.943)
Also, just as a mom, I’m curious what you would say, know, a lot of questions we get to around how do you keep, like for me, like how do you keep doing this for so long and what keeps you going? What keeps you going as a mom, like when it comes to your personal endurance and rejuvenation and finding your, your even time? I mean, I’ve got nine kids, you’ve got seven kids, it’s busy, life is busy. Like how do you, how do you find that?

Jamie (22:10.784)
Mm.

Jamie (22:14.293)
Yeah.

Jamie (22:18.526)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think it’s a really crucial question to answer. And it’s one that to be transparent, I have not prioritized in the right way for a long time. But it’s a question that will come knocking that needs to be answered or else it will sort of answer itself for you. And by that, mean, this time last year, I was walking through pretty intense burnout.

Brian Mavis (22:48.43)
Hmm.

Jamie (22:48.452)
and something needed to change. so I think it’s either taking care of yourself is either going to be proactive or reactive. It’s something that needs to be answered. so for me, it was reactive. I think I spent the spring sort of healing in so many ways and now it’s proactive. And so I have learned to take care of my body.

Brian Mavis (23:08.302)
Hmm.

Jamie (23:17.088)
I have learned that you just cannot keep pushing through because other needs need to be met, because everyone else’s needs prioritize your own. And so I’ve learned that one of the best ways I can love my kids is to take care of myself, that the only way I can show up regulated and attuned for them is if I’m regulated and attuned myself. There were so many things that

Brian Mavis (23:35.425)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (23:47.9)
I prioritize as a parent that because I was prioritizing my kids over my own wellness, it made me a worse parent. And so I’ve learned things like, you know, okay, what does it look like for my schedule to prioritize moving my body? What does it look like to take the time to make sure that I’m reading? Like I hit my reading goal this year for the first time ever because

Brian Mavis (23:54.414)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (24:14.684)
I needed to have moments where I wasn’t just being productive, where I wasn’t just meeting other people’s needs, but where I was resting and rejuvenating. And that was a hard shift for me. it’s something, you I’ve been teaching a workshop on self-care for six years now, and I’ve experienced burnout a number of times over those six years. So it’s something I knew.

Brian Mavis (24:41.422)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (24:42.676)
something that I believed in theory, but the reality of actually implementing changes was really hard. And so I don’t think we can ever answer that question for someone else. I don’t think we can say like, well, here’s what you need to do to make sure you’re taking care of yourself. I think that every parent needs to be asking sort of this bigger question of like, do I believe that my needs need to be met as well?

Brian Mavis (24:56.994)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jamie (25:11.38)
that I have physical, emotional, spiritual, relational needs, and that those need to be filled, that I cannot, all the cliches, like, your oxygen mask first, and you can’t give from an empty cup, like all those things, I knew them, I said them, but I had to like internalize it, I had to believe it in a way that actually brought change into my life, that I’m not going to push off therapy, I’m not going to push off exercise.

Brian Mavis (25:14.443)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (25:24.226)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jamie (25:39.922)
I’m not going to just work and work and be productive. I’m going to take two hours and walk around Hobby Lobby. Cause I’m not just a mom and I’m not just a leader and I’m not just, I’m also a person. And so it’s been a shift for me and a what? Sorry. Yeah. Decorator.

Brian Mavis (25:51.515)
Mm-hmm and a crafter apparently

Courtney Williams (25:56.026)
Yeah.

Brian Mavis (25:57.579)
After

Courtney Williams (25:59.323)
Yeah.

Brian Mavis (26:01.55)
Wow, two hours of hobby lobby. That’s a lot of, that’s a lot of hobby.

Jamie (26:04.87)
Yeah. So it was a big shift for me and it’s born really good fruit and it’s helped carry me through some really hard things.

Brian Mavis (26:19.638)
So what, what, I mean, you talked about kind of having to started by being reactive and you knew it all. I mean, do you feel like it’s inevitable that people have to re reach a crisis moment before they actually like, I’m going to start doing this.

Courtney Williams (26:19.652)
That’s Jeff.

Jamie (26:36.68)
Yeah. That is a really, really good question. The on paper answer is no, of course not. Of course we can make these changes proactively. Here’s what I know about the people who are in this work. We are willing to burn ourselves up because we see the need and we’re driven to meet the need and we love others and we’re sacrificial and compassionate. Like those things.

Brian Mavis (26:45.87)
You

Brian Mavis (26:50.936)
Hmm

Mm-hmm. Mm.

Jamie (27:06.578)
do not naturally prioritize self care. They do not naturally prioritize rest. And so for me, I had to almost like hack my belief system that that my taking care of myself was motivated by love for my kids, that the Hobby Lobby walk wasn’t just I want to go to Hobby Lobby, it was something needs to change so that I can show up for my kids. And so when I was able to see

taking care of myself, going to the doctor, like those things as for my kids, it actually empowered me to do them. And so do I believe you need to hit burnout to make change? No. Do I believe that a lot of us won’t make the change until we hit burnout? Maybe.

Brian Mavis (27:45.656)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (27:51.43)
Yeah. Gosh, that’s so important. mean, you said a line about five minutes ago of how by prioritizing parenting, it in effect, it made you a worse parent. And it brought to mind when I was, I don’t know, 14 or something, my dad once said to me, the best thing I can do for you as your dad is to love your mom. And I just thought, well, duh.

Jamie (28:17.12)
That’s right.

Brian Mavis (28:20.11)
And I thought if you guys are good, I’m good. But you lose that perspective as an adult. so I would say, yeah, not only self-care, but care for your marriage. Gosh, because this can wreak havoc on your marriage if you are prioritizing it over your marriage. And so ironically, by

Courtney Williams (28:20.676)
Yeah.

Jamie (28:23.188)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (28:27.85)
Definitely.

Jamie (28:41.29)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (28:49.87)
prioritizing other things, marital care, self-care. You can care for these kids even better. It’s just, yeah, I really want to just highlight this point for our listeners. because I’m afraid you’re right that they’re going to be like, sounds good, I’ll wait till the crisis. I hope you guys don’t. I hope you don’t wait for the crisis. I hope you internalize it.

Jamie (28:54.056)
Right? Right.

Jamie (28:59.454)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (29:10.93)
Yeah, that’s right.

Jamie (29:17.64)
Yeah, yeah, what’s hard is our kids needs, they come knocking for us. So they’re loud and in our face and really hard to ignore. And so we just go, well, I’m the adult, so I need to ignore my needs and meet theirs. And, you know, I see spiritual health, marital health, personal health as like, this is what is actually going to keep me going. This is what’s going to help me show up in the parent that I want to be.

Brian Mavis (29:17.686)
this what what Jamie’s saying right now.

Brian Mavis (29:28.694)
Right?

Jamie (29:46.016)
the parent that I need to be, the needs in my home are extreme. And so I can’t show up halfway. They need all of me. They need a rejuvenated, encouraged, faith-filled, strong mom. And that is going to take a change in the way that I take care of myself.

Brian Mavis (29:46.093)
Yeah.

Brian Mavis (29:53.131)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (30:10.456)
So good.

Courtney Williams (30:11.986)
Yeah. Yeah, and I do see it over and over again. And it’s okay for people to recognize that burnout comes, to recognize your personality. It’s okay to take a break. I think we also, in this field of foster care, especially we’ve been in it a long time, we almost become immune to just saying yes and saying yes and saying yes and then realizing that it’s okay to say no to a placement. It’s okay to say we need a break. It’s okay to say…

We need respite this weekend and respite I don’t think is talked about enough either of you know, I’ve got a single mom in our area. She’s got a place in the two boys right now, almost two year old and a five year old mom with a single mom and she asked for respite this weekend and we’re like we got a lot going on but this mom, she needs a break, you know, and recognize that and even finding people that are willing to say hey, we might not be a long term foster home but we could be a home that could take

Jamie (30:37.536)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jamie (30:54.56)
Mmm… Mmm…

Courtney Williams (31:02.958)
kids for a weekend to give a foster mom a break or a week or whatever it is and not frowning upon people when they do that. I we need help.

Brian Mavis (31:03.438)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (31:04.83)
Right, right.

Jamie (31:09.14)
Yep. Yeah, that’s good.

Brian Mavis (31:13.294)
So let me, this kind of the flip side of this, what we’ve been exploring in, I’ve got a writing rule that says that contrast brings clarity. So let’s look on the other side. Why do people quit?

Jamie (31:26.122)
Hmm. Yeah, I mean, the statistics are pretty staggering. You know, within the first year, it’s at least 50%. And then we often see that that number continues on each year after that. And so it’s a crisis. It really is a crisis because what we know is that kids need consistency and stability and disruption of placement is a trauma and actually impacts permanency goals for kids. So

Brian Mavis (31:35.148)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Courtney Williams (31:41.563)
Thanks

Brian Mavis (31:46.926)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (31:51.458)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jamie (31:55.304)
This is a question that needs to be answered. The realities, I think, are, I want to say two part, but probably 10 part, but I’m going to highlight two things. One is what foster parents come into foster care with. So the fact that they’re quitting within the first year means that maybe they weren’t coming in with the right expectations, with the right training, and with the right support, even just stepping in. So

speaking directly to foster parents, or I’m sorry, prospective foster parents, I would sort of ask these questions. Do you have a heart for and a focus on reunification? Do you understand that that is the goal of foster care and that any goal that you bring in that is in opposition to that goal is going to leave you discouraged and weary and heartbroken?

Brian Mavis (32:38.254)
Mmm.

Jamie (32:50.496)
So I think that’s a big thing. We need to make sure that foster parents are coming in with a real understanding of reunification, of the family, of how kids really research shows that kids do better with first family, that as a person of faith, that I have a belief that God created the family and so it’s sacred to him and I want to be a part of that being healed.

So I think that’s one thing. Another thing is just being trauma informed. You could be a parent for decades and have no idea what you’re getting yourself into when you welcome kids who’ve experienced hard things. And so the more that we can really train parents on what to expect, on how the strategies that may have served them or even the worldview that may have served them through parenting,

Brian Mavis (33:19.79)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (33:47.96)
their biological children needs to be at best evolved and probably thrown out completely. Like we need a different approach to the way that we’re we’re parenting the kids who who went to our homes through foster care. So I think those are two things that foster parents are are trained and and really seeking to have that perspective before they come in. The other piece is that they need to feel like they’re not alone in it.

Brian Mavis (34:04.984)
Yeah.

Brian Mavis (34:12.088)
That’s good.

Brian Mavis (34:17.39)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (34:18.046)
You know, in New Jersey, where I am, foster parents are called resource parents. And it’s a name that I hate. a resource, a resource is, it’s so clinical. It’s so systemic. It, no, we are people. Yeah. You, and you use them up. Exactly. So they’re there to be applied for your, your needs and your use and then thrown away.

Brian Mavis (34:23.084)
Uh-huh.

And me too, me too.

Courtney Williams (34:26.426)
Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Mavis (34:34.926)
It’s something you use. You use up resources.

Jamie (34:46.612)
we are parents who are welcoming kids into our families and loving them and caring for them. So the more that workers and systems and all that treat us like parents who love these kids and the more that the people around us really see us and surround us and support us, we think that that is what makes the difference. mean, at Foster the Family, we have a similar like…

Courtney Williams (35:03.462)
you

Jamie (35:12.992)
Okay, two pronged kind of mission. How do we serve families and how do we connect those who’ve said they want to serve families to those families? And I think that it’s relational, it’s practical, and the more that families feel seen, surrounded, and supported, the less likely they are to close their doors to the kids that need them.

Brian Mavis (35:20.024)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Williams (35:38.567)
And another thing that we’ll kind of transition into is we also need each other. And I feel like, you know, we’ve talked about this a lot in the podcast of I have close dear friends. I’ve got a wonderful church community. But when it comes to the things that are going on through the experiences of foster care and adoption and trauma.

Jamie (35:44.116)
That’s good. Yeah.

Courtney Williams (35:58.663)
my thoughts fellow foster and adoptive moms are the ones that I turn to when I need those things. And I think you recognize this in the gatherings, your field gatherings. Tell us about those gatherings. What are your hopes and dreams for them and kind of the direction you’re going to now.

Jamie (36:02.588)
Yeah,

Brian Mavis (36:03.694)
Mm.

Jamie (36:14.196)
Yeah, yeah, well, Foster the Family was founded by in this idea that foster parents need mutual support and connection the way that you’re saying. We know that we’ve experienced that ourselves. And so our very first program was a support group was let’s just gather parents together so that they can we’re not even training them. We’re not even serving them. We’re just creating a space where they can be connected with each other. And so Phil was born out of that.

Brian Mavis (36:40.12)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (36:43.748)
years ago, we had 80 women who came together for a weekend retreat. And it was it was biblical preaching and worship and then practical workshops and teaching. And then just lots of time for connection with each other to feel seen to have each other and just be refreshed and have fun and laugh and rest. And so that was where we began we now gather

1200 women in person and we have virtual and local gatherings as well. So if you want to be in the room with 1200 women and experience kind of the unique beauty of that, we gather in February in Lancaster. But then we have these spaces in, you know, there’s one in Phoenix and one in Dallas and so that you are connecting with other moms in your actual community that you can continue on and

Brian Mavis (37:20.898)
Okay.

Jamie (37:41.64)
continue to do life with, but still getting sort the heart of filled, which is really great teaching, applying God’s word to your journey as a foster adoptive parent, and then really practical workshops on everything that sort of applies to us as foster adoptive parents. So that is dear to my heart. It is sort of my baby and my passion project, and it’s the place where I receive.

so much encouragement, so much community and friendship. So it’s been really meaningful for me personally.

Brian Mavis (38:10.584)
Hmm.

Brian Mavis (38:16.014)
That’s amazing. 1200 ladies coming together in Lancaster in February. Gosh, I mean. Wow.

Courtney Williams (38:18.608)
Yeah.

Jamie (38:20.274)
It’s pretty great to, yeah, yeah. It’s not the most appealing setting, but there’s something about walking in that room and knowing like, I don’t have to explain, everyone here understands. When you sit at a meal, you start throwing out like diagnoses and acronyms and numbers that are shocking, like nine and seven. And it’s just like, yeah, these are my people. This is where I belong.

Courtney Williams (38:22.382)
Yeah.

Courtney Williams (38:30.351)
Hey.

Brian Mavis (38:33.87)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Williams (38:39.446)
acronyms.

Brian Mavis (38:39.99)
No.

Jamie (38:50.276)
And it’s really, I think that is important for so many people who feel alone, isolated, confused in their day to day to just have this time where they get away and experience real refreshment and encouragement.

Brian Mavis (38:51.192)
Hmm.

Brian Mavis (39:06.626)
All right, Jamie, we’re gonna ask a question that is solidly in your wheelhouse. This is your sweet spot. I want you to imagine right now, wouldn’t you imagine a mother out there right now who’s a foster mother, adoptive mother, who is feeling really alone and discouraged right now.

Jamie (39:13.344)
Okay. Yeah.

Brian Mavis (39:30.382)
Reach through this microphone as if you were speaking directly to this person. What do you want to tell them?

Jamie (39:40.672)
have felt that. You know, you joked about celebrity. I am sort of the Instagram foster mom and that is something that I feel. That is something that I think every mom feels. So first of all, it doesn’t mean you’re doing it wrong. Doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t be doing it, that you’re not equipped for this. Doesn’t mean that you should give up. So hear that first of all. And then second of all, I think hearing that every moment, every day,

Brian Mavis (39:42.605)
Hmm.

Brian Mavis (39:56.898)
Right.

Brian Mavis (40:00.367)
Mmm.

Jamie (40:10.392)
is important. That when it feels like, why did I even have this kid in my home for them to just go home? Why am I dealing with the same behaviors over and over? That the impact that you’re making, you cannot see or understand it. That it will echo out for the rest of these kids’ lives and into eternity. That the work that you’re doing in

Brian Mavis (40:19.438)
Mm.

Brian Mavis (40:36.002)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (40:38.408)
The small and seemingly meaningless and mundane and undone sort of moments of every day are eternal moments, that they’re life-changing moments. And so keep showing up when it’s hard because you can’t even imagine the impacts that you’re making on kids and families and your community, the world and eternity.

Brian Mavis (41:03.212)
That was excellent. I was right. You nailed it.

Courtney Williams (41:05.614)
Yeah. Encouragement. Yeah. Well, similarly, but now thinking what the kids in care. So flipping that kind of mindset and thinking about these kids. And one thing that we like to ask all of our guests as we finish out the podcast is if you were to finish this sentence, Jamie, what kids or youth in foster care really need is, what would you say?

Jamie (41:06.748)
I’m sorry.

Jamie (41:17.504)
Mmm.

Jamie (41:31.456)
They need people who are going to say yes to them for as long as they need them. So they need not just homes or beds. You we used to talk that way, like, I have a bed and kids need home. No, kids need families. Even if they have first family and are reunified to first family at every moment of a child’s life, they need a functional family. They need a

Brian Mavis (41:45.858)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Mavis (41:50.968)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (41:59.366)
a mom who is showing up for them or a dad who is showing up. so kids need to be embraced into a family for as long as they need. And for a lot of our kids, that’s going to mean post reunification. might mean into and AKB does this well. It might mean far past when they graduate from foster care, far past when the state keeps serving them.

Brian Mavis (42:16.408)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (42:28.978)
They need people who are going to walk with them and love them and remain a part of their story. So parents, people who are going to say yes to them and walk with them for as long as they need them.

Courtney Williams (42:44.326)
Yeah, very well said. And just truth. That is truth. That’s what these kids need. They need a sense of belonging in a family for however long that looks for a moment. We always kind of have inside things here, but one of them is that as long as needed, right? Like say yes, as long as needed. And that’s the heartbeat behind your field gatherings. It’s the heartbeat behind all these things you talked about today. It’s getting these families that are, you know,

Brian Mavis (42:50.818)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jamie (42:50.826)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jamie (43:02.11)
Yeah. Yeah.

Courtney Williams (43:11.556)
that don’t quit within the first year. Like how can we keep them going so that they can say yes for as long as this kid needs without the burnout, without the feeling loneliness, without being discouraged. And those things will come, but then how can we sustain and rejuvenate and get back on our feet to keep saying yes.

Jamie (43:14.506)
Yeah, that’s right.

Jamie (43:24.33)
That’s right. That’s right. That’s good.

Courtney Williams (43:30.768)
Well, as we close this off, tell us how can listeners, if they aren’t already following you, which I’m guessing most of you all are, how can people follow you? How can they find out about your gatherings and all the stuff you’re doing?

Jamie (43:42.516)
Yeah, so I am president on social media at Foster the Family blog, fosterthefamilyblog.com. And then the organization that I lead is fosterthefamily.org. So you can learn about our support groups. We have support groups around the country. You can learn about the field gathering or the local gatherings, which will be happening in the spring. So foster the family across the board. That’s where I am.

Brian Mavis (44:02.936)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Williams (44:10.328)
easy enough. make sure we include that in the show notes again. For those that are listening, I encourage you to get your books, to read the books, follow Jamie if you’re not already, and then yeah, check out those field gatherings and support groups.

Brian Mavis (44:24.686)
Thank you, Jamie, for joining us and for all that you do that helps so many other families and kids. Thank you.

Courtney Williams (44:25.86)
Bye.

Jamie (44:33.002)
Thank you for having me. It was really sweet to talk with you both and I appreciate the work you do. I appreciate the invitation today.