Episode 41 – How to Bridge Holistic Sleep Principles and Trauma-Informed Care with Allison Ezell

TRANSCRIPT:

00:00:00:00 – 00:00:26:10
Unknown
Welcome to the foster Friendly podcast, where we come together to make a difference in the lives of children in foster care and the families who care for them. Foster friendly communities are part of a nationwide movement by America’s Kids Who Belong. That helps people from all walks of life take action and help kids and families thrive. You’ll hear from former foster youth, foster and adoptive parents, social workers, faith and business leaders, and other experts on how to engage in meaningful ways.

00:00:26:12 – 00:00:37:05
Unknown
Our host Bryan, Travis and Courtney explore inspiring stories of everyday people making a difference in foster care, where they live and work.

00:00:37:05 – 00:00:57:12
Unknown
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Foster Family Podcast. Today, my my co-host Courtney, we’re going to be talking about the topic of sleep, how relevant and needed and elusive that thing can be. So before we get into introducing our guests and more of the topic, Courtney, I mean, how many hours of sleep do you need? What helps get you to sleep?

00:00:57:13 – 00:01:15:00
Unknown
I mean, just what is it? Because I’m pretty good about sleep. I get about eight hours a night. But I’m kind of different than a lot of people. I fall asleep, or I go to sleep reading pretty much every night, and I feel like it’s probably for me because I have a large family. It’s kind of my way to, like, just forget about all that stuff.

00:01:15:00 – 00:01:32:11
Unknown
And then I start reading a novel, and then I’ll my mind will be in that, and then I can fall asleep and not be like worrying about my kids or what we need to do tomorrow. Just going my way to relax and forget. Hey, so how about you, Travis? How do you I, I, I we my wife and I often watch YouTube videos and I just travel kind of stuff.

00:01:32:11 – 00:02:03:06
Unknown
It’s my deal is waking up. I fall asleep just awake and stuff. So can’t wait to hear more about maybe some help on that today. Yeah. Good idea. Well, today we are joined by Allison Ezell. Diesel. Sorry. I’ll start that over. Yeah. It’s always up like ten times is out. Today we are joined by Allison Ezell, who’s going to help us build a bridge between holistic sleep habits and our children’s trauma.

00:02:03:08 – 00:02:22:02
Unknown
So her herself, like, after she struggled for years with her adopted son, sleep issues, she began to realize that there’s, like, huge hole in foster and adoption space. And nobody out there was really educating on how to support our kids through their trauma and how that relates to their sleep. So she decided to do something about it. So we’re going to hear about that today.

00:02:22:02 – 00:02:41:13
Unknown
And we are just so thankful that you are here. Joining us, Allison, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. This is this is a huge honor. I am a huge fan of you guys. So super, super, super thrilling. Grateful to be here. Awesome. Great to have you. Yeah. Okay. Well, before we dive into the sleep stuff, tell us a little bit more about your family.

00:02:41:13 – 00:03:04:01
Unknown
How did you get into foster care and adoption and what was that connection? Yeah, absolutely. So my husband and I, adoption came up early on when we were dating. To be honest, I have a grandmother who was adopted from foster care back in the 1920s. And, I mean, super different. Not at all what it is. You know, a hundred years later, she actually lived in an orphanage.

00:03:04:01 – 00:03:26:17
Unknown
It was kind of an Annie Miss Hannigan situation, and was adopted by the orphanage director. And so I kind of grew up knowing her story was always really touched by. I always thought adoption would be part of my, my my story, my family one day, and then happened to marry a man whose, father was adopted at birth, privately, as an infant.

00:03:26:17 – 00:03:49:06
Unknown
And so we kind of came into marriage thinking that would be part of the way we grew our family, one day. And then we ended up having two biological kids very quickly in our marriage and sort of thought, okay, that’s good. We’re done. Well, maybe not. And couple years later, we just really felt this draw towards international adoption.

00:03:49:06 – 00:04:17:12
Unknown
Actually. And so in 2016, we adopted our third child internationally. He was born in China. Came home at about 14 months and then again, we’re like, we’re good. We’re done. Check the box. We did the thing, you know? And then we very quickly realized, okay, hold on. Maybe there’s maybe there’s more here. A couple years went by and then, you know, Covid happened.

00:04:17:14 – 00:04:36:10
Unknown
And in the, in the pandemic, we sort of just felt this, you know, burden somehow to get involved with, you know, vulnerable kids right here in our own backyard. And we sort of thought we may adopt again one day from China. And then the pandemic really shut that down. And have you seen any of the news lately?

00:04:36:10 – 00:05:02:02
Unknown
You know, that’s actually ended completely, unfortunately for the kids there. But we thought, you know, okay, you know, we don’t need to go across the world. We can serve vulnerable kids right here in our own backyard. And so we actually got certified as foster parents during the pandemic, which looks very different, I think, than typical licensing. But we got certified as foster only parents during the pandemic and are now adopted.

00:05:02:02 – 00:05:29:15
Unknown
Son came to us in May of 2021. So we have four kids, to two now adopted and two biological. Very cool. Yeah. Well, sharing your grandma like that. So. Yeah. Yeah, I’d love to not. We don’t have time today, but someday I’d love to just dive into that. And even the differences between back then, if you know a lot about that, it’s it’s fascinating to really research, to know the history of foster care in the United States.

00:05:29:17 – 00:05:46:10
Unknown
Yeah, it was always very fascinating to me. And she loved to tell stories. She loved to talk about it. And she actually had two brothers. She was adopted with one brother, and then the other brother was separated and adopted on the other side of the country. So I, you know, we’ve always had a big heart for siblings and things like that.

00:05:46:12 – 00:06:05:03
Unknown
Didn’t end up getting placed with siblings, but, you know, hearing her story about being separated and how they came back together and things like that, her story was wild. So really, really interesting to grow up with that. Yeah, as a kid and to hear about all that, it gives you a real heart for for those kids for sure.

00:06:05:05 – 00:06:30:10
Unknown
1%. Yeah, yeah. Well, thanks for bring us in a little bit to your story and kind of where you guys have come as a family is super cool. So as we pivot into the discussion today on sleep, you got certified as a pediatric sleep consultants. There’s a title in 2021 while fostering your youngest son and founded Dwell Pediatric Sleep in early 2022.

00:06:30:12 – 00:06:33:09
Unknown
Tell us more about that journey, how all that came about.

00:06:33:22 – 00:07:01:11
Unknown
Yeah. So dwell really came about because of my son Brooks. He is our son who was born in China. And when he came home, sleep was just a mess. And we were absolutely unprepared. We were completely unprepared for that to be the case. The only advice we’d been given at all during our pre-service training was that sometimes kids from trauma have trouble sleeping co-sleep, and that was literally the only thing we were told the entire pre-service training.

00:07:01:13 – 00:07:26:21
Unknown
And so our pediatrician, of course, in his very non trauma informed wisdom, recommended a sticker chart which did absolutely nothing, for him. And, you know, so I had this this toddler who was waking up frequently all night long, hysterical grieving, which if you’ve ever had a kid nighttime grieve, it is a very gutter. It is a thing you don’t forget.

00:07:27:03 – 00:07:50:20
Unknown
It is. It is very sad. And it is something that sticks with you. And so we sought out some therapy for him, and, also went the medical route of getting him into a neurologist to get some sleep, medicine, you know, direction as well. And what I really found was that these two professionals advice were in conflict with one another.

00:07:50:20 – 00:08:09:18
Unknown
And so, you know, the TBR therapist was recommending certain things, and the sleep medicine doctor was recommending sleep training. And I just thought, how do I how do I do this? How do I make the right hand and the left hand talk to each other? How do I how do I bridge that? There’s. So I went on a quest to find somebody who could help me do that.

00:08:09:20 – 00:08:26:23
Unknown
And there are tons of sleep consultants out there, but none of them are taking a none of them are taking that trauma informed approach. They’re just, you know, they’re just pushing sleep training and they’re just pushing cry it out and these types of things. And I knew that wasn’t right for him. I knew that was not going to be our path.

00:08:27:01 – 00:08:43:04
Unknown
And so I just I, you know, was venting to my husband one day and I was like, listen, this does I spent the last three years trying to make sense of these things, and I can’t figure it out. You know, there’s got to be something that I’m missing. I need more sleep knowledge. I have a master’s in education.

00:08:43:04 – 00:09:01:18
Unknown
I get kids like I understand child development. I have a ton of trauma training, but I don’t understand sleep. So I want to help people. I’m going to go get certified as a pediatric sleep consultant and see if I can kind of use my my background and my experience and my knowledge to kind of make sense of sleep.

00:09:01:20 – 00:09:19:10
Unknown
And he went go for it. He said, I think that’s fantastic. Go for it. He was all about it. He, you know, was like, I think you’d be fantastic at that. It uses your teaching background and, you know, obviously something you’re very passionate about. And we did it with a foster toddler at home, which I still am.

00:09:19:10 – 00:09:39:22
Unknown
Like, you were nuts. Oh, you couldn’t manage that because he had been with us about a month when I applied, for my certification. And, so we were just in the, you know, the first 30 days of a foster placement are bananas. And so I was like, sure. What? When I go back for that, that’s not crazy.

00:09:39:23 – 00:10:03:19
Unknown
And so I did. So I got certified and began dual pediatric sleep about three years ago. In the beginning of 2022. And it has been wild. It was so clearly I need so clearly a whole, and it’s it’s just been such a crazy last couple of years to just watch this thing, just take off, fire.

00:10:03:21 – 00:10:20:05
Unknown
Cool. Very. Yeah. You know, as a foster mom, I see that. Exactly. You said, like, I train foster parents, and then I’m a mentor to foster parents, and that’s, I get phone calls all the time about sleep and food. Right? I think that’s two things. Yeah, there’s other things, but those are like two common all the time.

00:10:20:05 – 00:10:38:18
Unknown
People just have questions about them. So why is sleep is such a hard thing with our children that who come to our homes through hard situations, through trauma, through foster care or adoption? Why is it so hard? I think there are a couple of things. I think, number one, we have to remember that trauma impacts the brain and sleep is neurological.

00:10:38:20 – 00:10:59:13
Unknown
So of course it’s it’s coming from a place of heart. I think you also have to look at the context of sleep, at least in the Western kind of expectation that we have of sleep. We typically want kids to sleep alone in the dark for a long period of time, separated from the most important person that they have.

00:10:59:18 – 00:11:25:07
Unknown
So when you think about it in those terms of, you know, for a lot of kids who have experience, it’s really dark, really hard, really scary things, alone in the dark at night. Trigger, trigger trigger. Right. And so when you think about it as more than just physiology, right. Because sleep at its core is a biological function, we have to do it to survive.

00:11:25:09 – 00:11:46:19
Unknown
But when you think about the complexities of it, when you think about a kid who has been neglected overnight, when you think about a kid who has been through abandonment, who has been through hard things when they were alone, who has been through scary things in the dark when they were separated from their kids. Yeah, of course it’s hard.

00:11:46:21 – 00:12:06:13
Unknown
Like, of course it’s hard, because in our minds, this is the way we sleep, right? We put sleep in this little box of it has to be this, this and that. And even with foster care standards, it has to be this way. And yet that’s it for so many of our kids from hard places. It’s just triggers everywhere.

00:12:06:13 – 00:12:34:23
Unknown
So when you really strip it down, they don’t feel safe. I think you also have to remember that sleep is a it’s a very vulnerable thing to completely and totally surrender control to the people around you, to trust that they’re not going to harm you, to trust because it is a vulnerable, you know, loss of control. And for kids who have already been through a complete and total loss of control, a complete surrender, things have been out of their control.

00:12:35:01 – 00:12:53:01
Unknown
It’s just triggers everywhere. Yeah, it’s, our son, which I’ll ask you more about a little bit later. But he came to us at two through foster care, and immediately we’re like, there’s there’s sleep issues going on. Right. So it happened probably close to a year before they said, okay, well, we need you to sleep study. Right. We’re in foster care still.

00:12:53:06 – 00:13:12:12
Unknown
So it was very dictated by what they said we could do. We did a sleep study and he was sleeping. I’m not joking. Like up maybe two hours a night between like how much he was getting up and it was affecting everything else throughout the day. So we do the sleep study. My husband goes to sleep study with him, is sitting right next to him, and he sleeps perfectly.

00:13:12:14 – 00:13:31:14
Unknown
And so when we say, okay, he’s two, can we not at almost three at this time, can we please like bring his bed. And they would not let us. Yeah. And I think back in like that right there like it is what you’re talking about. Like obviously there was a disconnect between having somebody right next to him, not in the same bed, but just next to him versus being by himself and how much it affected him at night.

00:13:31:14 – 00:13:53:21
Unknown
And it’s like, oh, poor buddy, you know. Oh my God. Oh, so oh man. So much of it is just that lack of confidence, right? So many kids who are they’re just terrified. They feel completely anxious, insecure. They have no confidence in separation at all. They are those, you know, those stage five players who literally you have a magnet between you and they just follow your every move all day.

00:13:53:23 – 00:14:15:03
Unknown
And so when you think about sleep in the context of it being separation, it it can be really hard for high anxiety kids. Well, I mean, it’s just it’s one of those things where, as you point out, you know, in that situation of the three sort of just blatant triggers, you know, it’s man like light bulbs, come on, wake us up.

00:14:15:03 – 00:14:33:03
Unknown
But I was thinking too, like, also the vulnerability and the backstory of so many of the kids that may have been abused at night removals. You’ll hear about, like, I think in the case of I’ve many kids, you’ll talk about the the cops coming at night, right? All the night, you know, and, and so like, right.

00:14:33:03 – 00:15:07:12
Unknown
And so like all of that stored to like, you know, we talk about trauma being stored in the body. I mean like, yeah. Gosh, it’s just so I think I was lamenting as I was kind of, you know, thinking about this podcast coming up about, the innocence of childhood to me so much, you know, if you’ve maybe come from a really stable home and maybe there weren’t, like, health struggles that could cause it, but just how I felt like childhood and sleep kind of, to me, in an innocent way, go hand in hand like layer the world and stress and, you know, even relationships and dating in high school, you know, all of that

00:15:07:12 – 00:15:30:16
Unknown
starts to calm. But to be so young and on top of all, you’ve been through the trauma to not even be spared, to be able to sleep as a five year old, or it’s just that that is. It’s so sad. Yeah, it’s awful and it’s it’s so incredibly common and so many of the things, especially as foster parents, that we want to do that feel like the right thing.

00:15:30:16 – 00:15:45:05
Unknown
Right. Like laying with kids until they fall asleep or, you know, when they have a nightmare. I still remember thunderstorms. I literally would crawl right up between my parents. It was my little safe zone. I would get, you know, I would crawl up between my parents and bed and I would be like, okay, I have my little like, cocoon.

00:15:45:10 – 00:16:14:01
Unknown
And I was like, okay, I’m safe here because I was terrified of thunderstorms. But so many, so much of that. And and I understand the safety aspects of it. I understand why licensing is the way it is, but it’s it’s so hard when you can’t even respond in the ways that you want. Yeah. Well, on a practical note of starting to kind of apply some of your knowledge and all that you’ve learned through this, like, you know, you kind of reference sleep holistically and things like that.

00:16:14:01 – 00:16:33:22
Unknown
So kind of what does that mean practically for listeners, you know, ways to help their children more. And then are there tips and tools that sort of for all ages, or how do you kind of unpack some of the practical on sleep? Yeah, I look at sleep as a very holistic thing. Yes, it is scientific. Yes, there is a science to it.

00:16:33:22 – 00:16:53:19
Unknown
Yes, it’s physiological. And, you know, from that point of view there are things like understanding sleep pressure, right. Sleep pressure is a child’s drive to sleep. So, you know, if you think about, you know, these kids that take these marathon naps in the middle of the day and then their parents are frustrated because it takes them two hours to fall asleep at night.

00:16:53:19 – 00:17:17:11
Unknown
Right? That’s a science issue, right? I guess it’s a sleep pressure issue there. There’s not enough sleep pressure for bedtime. Right? So that is kind of in my opinion, whenever I’m working with a family, that’s the low hanging fruit, right? That’s the easy things to manipulate. That’s just looking at kind of like the core. Right. So looking at things like the sleep environment, schedules, timing, that’s kind of the low hanging fruit.

00:17:17:11 – 00:17:44:03
Unknown
Right. But really in the in the case of foster and adoptive families, sometimes you you don’t even want to get there until you deal with the deeper stuff, until you deal with, okay. Do you does this child even feel safe walking into their sleep space? Because for a lot of kids, you know, when the bed and I noticed this with my own son just mute, saying the words, it’s time to get ready for bed and moving towards his room.

00:17:44:03 – 00:18:05:06
Unknown
His whole demeanor changed and he was this happy go lucky kid all day long. And then it was something about night, and it was like Jekyll and Hyde, and a different version of him showed up at night. And I hear this all the time from parents that this is a very common struggle. The night version of their kid and the day version of their kid are two completely different things.

00:18:05:08 – 00:18:22:10
Unknown
And so I think when I say I look at sleep as a whole mystic thing, yes, we want to address the science. Yes, we want to make sure that we’re getting the timing right. Yes, we want to make sure we’re looking at things like sleep associations. Right. So what are the conditions your child’s falling asleep in, and are those things changing later.

00:18:22:10 – 00:18:53:06
Unknown
Right. How can we work on sleep associations. How can we work on sleep pressure? That’s the easy stuff right? But what we also want to think through from the looking at the child is a whole child, right? Where’s their confidence? Where’s their confidence in separation? Where’s their confidence in their sleep space. What’s in their toolbox. Right. Because when kids have tools, when we equip them with tools, when they are given strategies, when they know better, they do better, right?

00:18:53:06 – 00:19:13:08
Unknown
Kids want to do well. But when the only. But if they don’t have any tools in their toolbox, they don’t have anything to go on. So how can we equip them with tools? What do they need? Do they need an auditory focal point that would be like an audio book? Do they need kind of like you said, Courtney, you said, do you read to sleep to kind of tune out the day?

00:19:13:10 – 00:19:32:23
Unknown
A lot of kids need that. I love these new audio players that have come out for kids, these Tony’s boxes and these Yoda players. I think those are so helpful for kids that just need to turn their brains off, right? They need to just listen to a very monotone voice, read a story to them, and so that they can tune out.

00:19:32:23 – 00:19:54:14
Unknown
Right. How can we help their bodies? Right. So some kids are just if you can just get them flat, that’s the trick. How do we get them flat? Because once they’re flat, they’re out. They they’re either 0 or 100. There’s no in between. Right. So what tools does our child need? How can we help them learn to regulate and calm.

00:19:54:17 – 00:20:13:23
Unknown
And that’s a dance for a while right. We know that’s a Co regulation dance for a while. But eventually they need to have these tools in their toolbox. My daughter my biological daughter is actually super high anxiety. And she has a whole toolbox. Literally, literally. It’s a caboodle next to her bed that is her sweet little box and she’s juggling.

00:20:13:23 – 00:20:38:15
Unknown
It’s a caboodle because she’s 11. But of course it is. But she has in there things that she knows will work for her. So she has journals, she has fidget, she has gratitude like affirmation, gratitude journal and affirmations. And she has things to pull from. So when I say it’s holistic, it is literally brain and body. So let’s address the science with the brain.

00:20:38:15 – 00:21:08:19
Unknown
Let’s look at the body. Let’s look at the emotional. Let’s look at the confidence. It’s so many different things. And rarely do I sit down with a family where it’s just one thing. Rarely do I sit down and say, oh, it’s all a timing issue. You just got to face the timing. We also need to look at the emotional, the confidence, the, you know, all of those types, the emotional, the mental, all of those things in order to get, you know, the picture moving in the right direction makes a lot of sense.

00:21:08:19 – 00:21:31:20
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, definitely. So going back to my son I was telling you about. So he is now seven. He’s been with us for five years and for five years it’s been the struggle of sleep. And we’ve tried, you know, again he was in still in foster care for a couple of years. He’s been with us. But you know, we’ve seen specialists and sleep doctors and did the sleep study and melatonin and medicine and nothing we could.

00:21:31:20 – 00:21:54:00
Unknown
We finally figured out how to get him to sleep. Right. We tried all these things. We got this to go to sleep, but then it was like an hour later, he’d be up and up every 20 to 30 minutes all night long. So again, it’s been multiple doctors. And finally I feel like kind of like what you’re experiencing, different doctors are or different specialists will contradict each other.

00:21:54:02 – 00:22:11:03
Unknown
And from day one I’ve been saying there is trauma. This is trauma related. And some of them look at me like I’m absolutely crazy when I bring that up. Like, okay, it’s not trauma. You know, this is this is sleep. I’m like, no, but it’s trauma. Yeah. And so we’ve been trying on our own kind of we’ve been doing our own research of like, how can we what are the things that we feel like are tied to this.

00:22:11:03 – 00:22:29:01
Unknown
And he also has an eating disorder. And so we thought with this disorder and the sleep and getting up, a lot of times thinking about in our mind, thinking about food and food and when’s food coming, we’ve tried different things, but one thing that we found, the only thing we found to help so far is cutting up sugar from his diet.

00:22:29:03 – 00:22:48:03
Unknown
And I’m just so curious if you have any insight as to why or why would that be something that’s helped him fall asleep? How does food play a role in sleep, and are they interrelated? Or is I just me playing doctor? No, no, they absolutely are. Oh, they absolutely are. Nutrition plays a huge role in sleep, and in a lot of different ways.

00:22:48:03 – 00:23:03:20
Unknown
Right? I mean, food insecurity, which it sounds like, you know, has has been a huge has been a struggle, you know, food insecurity and that constant need for more, and for a lot of kids, it’s not even that they necessarily have to be eating all the time. They just want to hold it or they just want to see it.

00:23:03:22 – 00:23:21:01
Unknown
Right. Sometimes I’ll have parents put, you know, depending on the age of the kid, just just leave a little snack on their nightstand. They just need to know that it’s there. They don’t have to eat it. Right. They just need to know that it’s there. But a lot of times, nutritionally nutritional deficiencies can play a big role in sleep.

00:23:21:01 – 00:23:47:09
Unknown
B12 is a huge nutritional deficiency that’s out there a lot, and it actually controls circadian rhythms. So it can cause a lot of frequent wake up. IRE is a huge nutrition issue. A lot of kids that have specifically iron source issues, have a lot of frequent waking, a lot of restlessness, a lot of jerking. And then, you know, sugar, blood sugar stabilization happening overnight.

00:23:47:09 – 00:24:12:12
Unknown
I’m a huge advocate of bedtime snacks, especially for kids with food insecurity. And, you know, specifically not talking about just like, hey, here’s a cookie, go to bed. But specific being very intentional, it sounds like, like you guys have been with getting that to be a high fat, high protein type snack, like a cheese and crackers or like a peanut butter, or, you know, a smoothie or a sandwich or something that is going to stabilize blood sugar overnight.

00:24:12:18 – 00:24:39:19
Unknown
Because when blood sugar dips overnight can get nightmares, you’re prone some more Paris on the US, it can cause more frequent waking. And so there’s there’s a huge link between the two in terms of deficiencies, insecurity and, you know, blood sugar stabilization too. They absolutely go hand in hand. It’s all fascinating. Yeah, I know, I know, yeah.

00:24:39:21 – 00:24:59:07
Unknown
Well, I’m thinking myself too. I’m like, I’ve, I’ve had a lot of nightmares this last year. My sugar dipping throughout, and I feel like I’m eating a bedtime snack. Yeah. Well, and then we, you know, it crackles out of concern in which, you know, but in so many American households, it’s just typically you get dessert after dinner and nobody really think twice about it.

00:24:59:09 – 00:25:15:04
Unknown
Right. But if there’s that big high sugar content right before you try to sleep, it can definitely create a lot of this. And it’s. Yeah, you know, because when kids wake up in the middle of the night, right, if you’re anything like me, you kind of go through that mental checklist. Are they hungry? Are they scared? Was it a nightmare?

00:25:15:05 – 00:25:34:02
Unknown
Are they cold? And the wind blew? Weird, right? You kind of go through that checklist, right. And so a lot of times, you know, if we add a bedtime snack to somebody’s bedtime routine, it’s kind of like one less thing. We can take off a list, right? Because we know we stabilize blood sugar. We know we met nutritional needs proactively.

00:25:34:02 – 00:26:03:06
Unknown
Right. And so it’s kind of one less one less overnight variable. Oh, that makes sense. You know, one thing that I just want to tie back to again, that whole connection because, you know, actually it was just National Nap day yesterday or the day before. And and at America’s Kids Belong, we posted a little social media thing on it, and something that I wrote of thinking about their senses, like, could you add, you know, essential oil, could you add a weighted blanket or, you know, like all the different senses, which is great, and I think they’re great starting points.

00:26:03:08 – 00:26:19:08
Unknown
But if her kids are missing the connection and aren’t feeling secure in their connection again, going back to our son, who I feel like from the very beginning, if we could have Adam in our room and just been in his presence, how much difference I probably would make. Today we just have a teenager in our house. A couple weeks ago.

00:26:19:10 – 00:26:39:01
Unknown
She was only here for ten days, but she’s with us for about five days. We sit down, we have a little meeting and she’s like, I am not sleeping at all. I am having nightmares, like really bad nightmares every night. But she was used to sleeping in a hotel room with ten other people. And so I kind of looked at her and I was like, do you think it would help if you were in a room with my other two teenage daughters instead of downstairs by herself?

00:26:39:03 – 00:26:51:15
Unknown
And she’s like, I think I make a huge difference. Yeah, because I’m used to being with people. And you’re like, why didn’t I think about that immediately when she got to her home? Like, would you like to sleep here or here? You know, giving her that choice, we automatically think, oh, they’re teenagers. They want to be by themselves.

00:26:51:16 – 00:27:11:01
Unknown
But that’s not. We have boys that we adopted from Ethiopia. They’ve never want to be in their room by themselves, too. I mean, to this day, they’re adults, and they still want somebody in the room with them. Yeah. So, yeah. Can you speak more to the connection part of it, like what we could do maybe as parents to help that, that aspect, because it’s probably we see a lot in the foster care and adoption world.

00:27:11:06 – 00:27:25:18
Unknown
Yeah. I think room sharing is one of the most powerful things we can do, honestly. And that was a game changer for my own son. And now I know there’s logistics and rules and you have to play a little bit of Tetris. Sometimes when you get a placement to figure out where they’re allowed to be and all those types of things.

00:27:25:20 – 00:27:45:16
Unknown
But that was a big game changer for my own son because he, we just when we were in China, we visited the, the social well, the orphanage essentially that he was in and he was in a room where there were cribs lining around the outside. And then there was like a horseshoe in the middle. And he was one of the kids in a horseshoe.

00:27:45:18 – 00:28:08:13
Unknown
And so he was used to being in a room with 20, 25 kids all the time, every hour, every minute of every day. And without getting too much into his story, being alone was a major trigger for him. And so one of the biggest game changers that, again, I got scrappy to just figure out my own kid, like a lot of his moms do.

00:28:08:15 – 00:28:23:22
Unknown
But I just, you know, I got real scrappy trying to figure out how to help him. And so one of the things that, I had read, I think it was Karen Purvis, actually, who recommended laying out a sleeping bag. I remember she called it a bedroll. I had to be like, head roll a sleeping bag. What I would call it.

00:28:24:03 – 00:28:44:11
Unknown
But rolling out a sleeping bag, at the end of our room, right at the end of our bed that he. Yeah. So in terms of connection, I think room sharing is such a valuable tool for a lot of our kids. A lot of our kids have come from co-sleeping situations. A lot of our kids have group settings, things like that.

00:28:44:11 – 00:29:09:12
Unknown
My own son was in an orphanage setting, and he was in a room of 20 babies all the time. He was never alone and without diving too much into his history. You know, being alone was a major trigger for him. And so one of the things I actually saw from Karen Purvis is that she recommended rolling out a sleeping bag, you know, next to a parent’s bed on the floor, and allowing the child to come there when they needed to.

00:29:09:12 – 00:29:23:17
Unknown
And so we did that for a long time, and it was his deal. And I and I actually use a strategy a lot of times with parents. It was his the old part of our bedtime routine. He would get a sleeping bag out from underneath our bed, would roll it out next to where I sleep. He have an extra pillow.

00:29:23:17 – 00:29:42:13
Unknown
He actually had an extra lovey he would put there. And then we go to bed and he knew what was there when he needed it. I kid you not, he came to it twice. You can’t do it two times. But he knew it was there. We continued this for almost a year and he knew it was there and just sort of like almost having that snack sometimes nearby.

00:29:42:13 – 00:29:58:21
Unknown
A lot of times kids just want to know there’s a back up. They want to know that something is available to them if they need it. They don’t always need it, but they want to know that it’s there. It’s that felt safety piece for them of knowing. Like, if I feel afraid, I know what to do and it’s practicing them and right.

00:29:58:21 – 00:30:20:15
Unknown
And so it’s building that confidence. It’s separation of knowing there’s a backup plan for me. And so what we eventually did is we moved that sleeping bag. Thankfully, my oldest has always been very easy with, sleep and accommodating his siblings. And so I was like, hey, but, you know, this wasn’t he was about probably how old was he at the time?

00:30:20:15 – 00:30:39:22
Unknown
Probably eight. And I went and I said to him like, hey, you know, Brooks has been using the sleeping bag in our room for a long time. Would you mind if we laid it out in your room tonight? Because, number one, he’s a little bit afraid to come downstairs because it’s dark. You’re just right across the hall from him, and he feels safe with you, so if he needs it, could he sleep on the floor?

00:30:40:02 – 00:31:04:23
Unknown
Well, we we went through that routine for four years and he would go in there some, I think, because it was closer. And just because he liked having a sleepover with his brother. But I think so much of that was just that connection piece and really getting his, you know, acknowledging that being alone and being separated was really hard and working as much as we could to sort of build his confidence with that.

00:31:05:01 – 00:31:22:16
Unknown
But then in the interim, right, meeting him where he’s at and giving him kind of a back up plan for what to do when he is really just feeling like, hey, you know, me being alone tonight is just it’s just a bridge too far today. And that was something his therapist actually said to me. That was incredibly powerful.

00:31:22:16 – 00:31:55:02
Unknown
In one of our early sessions with her was she said, Allison, I think you just need to grieve the idea that you had in your head for how this was going to look, because you decorated this room for him. You had all these visions of coming in to see your sleeping little cherub in his crib. And, you know, I think you need to if the fact that this isn’t look the way you thought it would, but we can still this can still be good if you need to let go of the vision that you had of this peacefully sleeping, calm, you know, baby, being in your home that you dreamed of for all these years,

00:31:55:08 – 00:32:23:01
Unknown
that’s not that’s a bridge too far for him. We’re asking more of him than he’s capable of at this point. So let’s work on meeting him where he’s at and really working on connecting with him so that he feels and builds confidence and and self safety and those moments of separation makes total sense. Yeah. And that’s and that’s that is such a great point to hammer home.

00:32:23:01 – 00:32:50:03
Unknown
Just also you know, in your context sleep. But generally what you just said there about foster care itself and about sort of like that idea to you might have had an expectation about whatever that was, what family should look around the table at a meal, at what, you know, devices or, you know, all that kind of stuff, the routines that you’re kind of speaking to in this context, sleep, but generally that we do need to adjust and to adapt to where they’re at and kind of meet them.

00:32:50:03 – 00:32:57:21
Unknown
Maybe we change our family routines or whatever. But yeah, yeah, I really love that. Even generally to.

00:32:57:23 – 00:33:18:20
Unknown
So kind of getting to the home straight away here. And nap day. You said it was yesterday, so I can’t use that excuse today if I ask my wife off today, but. Okay, so we know summer is around the corner. And, you know, that’s where routines change. And, you know, often for good or bad or whatever.

00:33:18:20 – 00:33:44:19
Unknown
But it’s just it’s different. It’s a different sort of rhythm. Can you help us, Allison, of just, What about routines and especially the summer where, you know, what tips on that or where we shouldn’t maybe switch on things or what? What you said the summer. I think we have you have to kind of know your kid and know I have one kid that can be loosey goosey, doesn’t care, doesn’t need the like structure.

00:33:44:19 – 00:34:19:10
Unknown
And they’re fine. They can roll with it. And I have other kids, two of my four who, having no structure, having no routine is their worst version of themselves. And I think you have to really look at your kid and say, okay, does my kid? Because really, I mean, structure is a huge pillar of health safety. So I think for a kid who really needs predictability, who needs consistency, who needs structure, and not everybody and not every kid does, this is very much their temperament to temperament plays a huge role in sleep.

00:34:19:12 – 00:34:42:07
Unknown
And you know, I think for them it is worth sort of the sacrifice of keeping some level of routine. Now you’re, it’s, you know, when it gets to be May, you’re going to see all over Instagram our summer daily routine and all that’s happening. Listen, I’ve got four kids that doesn’t fly in my house, but if it does for you, that’s fantasy stick.

00:34:42:09 – 00:35:02:04
Unknown
That doesn’t really work at my house. But I do like to keep, generally speaking, for my kids that need it kind of a set, you know, morning wake time. We kind of go through our little morning routine and the same with bedtime, you know. And so I think for some kids that’s going to be important. One thing.

00:35:02:09 – 00:35:28:22
Unknown
Oh, my kids are five through 13. So even at their ages, we do take what I call fob time every single day of the summer. And it’s FOB, which stands for flat on back. Not one of my kids naps anymore, but there’s a lot of them. And so we need to go to separate corners sometimes. So that is one thing that every single day, unless they’re like out at a camp all day or something, that is something that we have built into our routine.

00:35:28:22 – 00:35:49:15
Unknown
And so it is literally, you know, you go to your room, you go to your so they got to go to their separate corners because there’s a lot of fighting. Three of my kids are boys, so there’s a lot of sleeping. Yeah, it’s a lot. We at my house and so we just need to separate. So I think when it comes to summer, I think understanding your kid.

00:35:49:15 – 00:36:05:21
Unknown
And if you get to a point where you just said, like, I just want to roll with it, like I just want to be flexible and free, well, that’s great, but if two weeks in, you’re like, pulling your hair out, maybe you need to get back into something like that. So I think I think it’s kind of kid dependent.

00:36:05:21 – 00:36:33:11
Unknown
Temperament dependent. But, you know, not if you are going to let go of this structure of time. In the summer, I think it’s important to not abandon structure altogether, because that will especially for kids from inconsistency in their backgrounds. You know, kids have had a lot of caregivers, things like that. That can be a really difficult thing for them, because predictability and consistency is such an integral piece of their felt safety.

00:36:33:13 – 00:36:51:01
Unknown
So I think for for certain kids, you got to kind of watch that. And, you know, the easiest thing to do is just to have a set morning wake time, which you don’t want to do in the summer because you’re like, I want to sleep in and I get it. But it can domino into the whole rest of the day and that kind of that low hanging fruit.

00:36:51:01 – 00:37:02:03
Unknown
Right. That’s the easiest piece of the day to manipulate to kind of get this, get things started off on the right foot. And to help the dominoes fall a little bit better the rest of the day.

00:37:02:05 – 00:37:31:02
Unknown
Is great. It’s really helpful and help those of you with the summer months, because we all know, like I said, it’s it’s hard with a lot of kids too. But I love how you said that. Like really looking at them as individuals and what they each need. And how can you make this work together? Yeah, yeah yeah. And and I will say that when you have multiple because you sort of just want everyone to kind of follow the same routine, but I think, you know, it can be it can be good and you can have good intent there.

00:37:31:04 – 00:37:59:23
Unknown
But not every kid’s going to respond the same way. Yeah. And there’s not equal through what a common thing we say in our household. The monster. Yeah. There’s a well, as we close this out, one thing we like to ask people. So could you please finish this sentence also, what do kids in foster care really need? A cheerleader, I’m going to say a cheerleader.

00:38:00:01 – 00:38:21:18
Unknown
I think a lot of times when I’m working with families, I really like to take the approach of, like, being on the same team with your kid. And I think a lot of times, especially around sleep, we get into power struggles. We get into power struggles. Like, this is the way you’re going to do it, because this is the way I say.

00:38:21:20 – 00:38:42:04
Unknown
And you know, we get into a lot of power struggles with kids who won’t stay in their bed and that come out of their room a million times, and they want you to do this thing and you don’t want to do this. And so there’s so much tug of war, there’s so much tug of war. And I think a lot of times, especially with kids where sleep is really tricky for them, it can feel like we’re on opposite teams.

00:38:42:06 – 00:39:08:17
Unknown
And a lot of times the biggest step we can take is just to realign and say, hey, I’m your cheerleader. We’re going to be on the same team. I’m going to guide you, I’m going to support you. I’m going to encourage you, I’m going to coach you, but I’m not going to be against you. And that can be a really powerful mindset shift when it comes to sleep, because when you’re tired, listen, when you’re tired, you just want some sleep, right?

00:39:08:19 – 00:39:29:03
Unknown
You just you’re like, I will do anything. I remember at one point I looked at my son and be like, I will get you an emotional support turtle if it means you will just sleep longer hours at a time, like, oh, I’m so tired, so I can sleep, right? I’m crying. We’re just crying on the floor together. And, you know, I think really being like, why?

00:39:29:04 – 00:39:50:01
Unknown
Why are we fighting about this so much? And then really being like, hold on, you’re on the same team, you’re on the same team. And to really shift that mindset to, I want to grow with you. I want to support you and encourage you. I want to be your cheerleader as you grow and as you move through life, can be a really powerful mindset shift.

00:39:50:01 – 00:40:10:13
Unknown
And I think every kid in foster care needs at least one cheerleader in their life. I’m not sure some well said. Okay, well, if somebody is listening is like, hey, this is great, but I’m like, I’m struggling. I need more support than an episode of a podcast. How can they reach out? How can they find you to get better training, more training in this?

00:40:10:15 – 00:40:36:19
Unknown
Yeah, absolutely. So the vast majority of what I do is working 1 to 1 with families. That is my favorite thing to do. That is where the magic can happen, because we can really dive into it. And I can talk holistically about sleep all day. But what really, what really is the magic is when we really get into your specific child with their specific history, which makes a big deal, you know, with their specific history, with their specific struggles, with their specific routines.

00:40:36:21 – 00:40:57:20
Unknown
So I that’s my favorite thing to do is walk with a family. 1 to 1. Whether that’s just one meeting or whether that’s for, you know, a period of time together. That’s my favorite thing. Dwell. Pediatric. Slate.com is my website, which has all the different 1 to 1 options there. I also have an online course specifically for foster and adoptive families.

00:40:57:20 – 00:41:16:10
Unknown
That is, in my opinion, what was missing from all of these pre-service trainings that we didn’t get, where it walks through sleep science, what I call sleep science 101, and then it walks through how trauma impacts sleep. And it it’s the bridge. It’s the bridge that nobody could give me. And so I’ve created it for other people.

00:41:16:10 – 00:41:38:07
Unknown
So it is the all night force on my website as well. There’s newborn info there as well. And then Instagram. Instagram is my favorite place to hang out. I have a Facebook as well. I don’t hang out there quite as much. But Instagram is my favorite place to hang out. I am dual pediatric sleep. There as well, and I had a TikTok until all the weird stuff happened and now I don’t have one anymore.

00:41:38:09 – 00:41:55:18
Unknown
But it has happened. And I love la la la. I don’t know if I love following you on Instagram. You have like you just post like such practical things all the time and little tips. That’s like, I just need that reminder and that reminder and that one. So I highly suggest following you. That’s my happy place. I do weekly question and answer sessions there.

00:41:55:20 – 00:42:14:05
Unknown
You know, and I do. I’m not a gatekeeper of information. I literally just just pour out what I know as much as I can and just try to help as many people as I can, whether it’s there or, in the more, you know, paid opportunities. That’s not what I’m here for. I’m, I’m just here. I’m just here to help.

00:42:14:05 – 00:42:16:17
Unknown
So as much as I possibly can.

00:42:17:11 – 00:42:36:10
Unknown
That’s amazing. And so needed. And we, on behalf of the country and foster parents everywhere. Yeah. Tired parents in general. Thank you so much for all your work here and for the much I do for foster kids and your advocacy and your education. And, I am I am grateful for you guys as well.

00:42:36:10 – 00:42:38:15
Unknown
Yes. Have a good day.

00:42:38:15 – 00:42:58:10
Unknown
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00:42:58:11 – 00:43:25:09
Unknown
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