In this episode of the Foster Friendly Podcast, hosts Travis and Courtney, along with guest Bethany Hall, discuss the complexities of navigating the holidays for children in foster care. They explore the emotional challenges, the importance of managing expectations, and strategies for preparing both parents and extended family for the unique dynamics that arise during this time.
The conversation emphasizes the need for trauma-informed approaches and the significance of creating supportive environments for children. This conversation delves into the complexities of navigating holidays for families involved in foster care. It highlights the emotional challenges faced by children, the importance of preparing them for new experiences, and the need for understanding from extended family members. The speakers share personal anecdotes and practical strategies for creating a supportive environment during the holidays, emphasizing the significance of cultural heritage and empowering birth families. The discussion also touches on the role of education in fostering awareness and compassion within the community.
Visit Chosen.care to learn how Chosen’s services and training can make a difference in your family’s life.
Transcript:
Travis (00:02.158) Welcome to another edition of the Foster Friendly Podcast. I'm one of your hosts, Travis Vongsnus, and I'm joined by my co-host Courtney Williams. We're to talk today about a really relevant topic as we're approaching the holidays here. It's about the holidays, navigating the holidays well when it comes to caring for kids in foster care and also for those of us that have friends or family that have kids in foster care that we may not, but knowing how to better support them. Courtney (00:04.469) We're Travis (00:29.9) and kind of just understanding, you know, kind of this whole dynamic, because we all know the holidays can bring a lot of fun and joy and complexity and all that. So it's going to probably tips for everyone in this space as well. So Bethany Hall is our guest today. She's a licensed family nurse practitioner specializing in complex developmental trauma. She's lived experience as a missionary and foster adoptive mom and extensive experience training nonprofit organizations, foster. Courtney (00:34.405) So, Travis (00:57.784) and adoptive families, educators, social workers, and others. She's been married to her husband, Kevin, for 17 years. They have three children at home, biological and adopted. She's also TIA to many young adults who are now starting their own families. Bethany is the director of training and content at CHOSEN, whose mission is to help children, youth, and families prevent and heal trauma through healthy relational connections. Thanks for joining us today, Bethany. Courtney (01:04.211) . Bethany Hall (Chosen) (01:24.125) Thanks for having me. Great to be here with you all. Courtney (01:27.349) Yeah, thanks for joining us. And as we get started, can you just tell us a little bit more about yourself and your family? Bethany Hall (Chosen) (01:32.637) Yeah, I was thinking that was quite a mouthful, Travis. Thanks for all that. I feel like you needed to take a break midpoint. Well, as you said, I am a family nurse practitioner. My background is in pediatric emergency medicine and spent many years in that field. And I also have lived experience as a foster and adoptive mom and around COVID time. Travis (01:34.798) I'm tired. I need to rest now for a while. yep. Courtney (01:34.857) Yeah. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (01:55.037) Kind of took a left shift and started into this foster and adopt world, providing consultation in training and ended up at Chosen. Just really resonated with their mission and vision. In my own personal life, you might note that last phrase about being a Tia to many. So we spent four years living in Mexico and worked with a transition program, helping youth that had grown up in institutionalized settings set out on their own. And so I have six adult kiddos that still live in Monterey. I still am very connected with them. I visit their quite often in four grandbabies. So it's kind of fun being a really young grandma, but kind of hard having them be so far away. So I have nine that I claim, even though not all of them actually call me mom. So many of you might understand that. Courtney (02:40.395) special. Travis (02:42.518) Well, we always love to kind of dig into states sometimes too, is like we're, you know, representing places all over the country and you're coming from Michigan. I read somewhere that Michigan, you're always only like six miles away from, from water somewhere. That was pretty fascinating. So yeah, wow. Right. So what's, what's like your favorite thing about living in Michigan? Bethany Hall (Chosen) (02:55.613) Yeah, lots of lakes. Courtney (02:58.101) Right, so what's your favorite thing about living in Michigan? Bethany Hall (Chosen) (03:02.695) Well, I joked with my husband. said, do I have to pick something? Because I've always wanted to live somewhere warmer. And I've spent my entire life close to Canada, which is about as cold as you can get. But I do love the changing of the seasons. We get really great seasons right now. It's beautiful. Everything is orange and red and super pretty. I flew out to travel a couple of weeks ago. And as you get up higher, you can see all of the colors. And that was really fun. thought, OK, that is really pretty. I like that. Courtney (03:07.123) You Courtney (03:28.469) That's great. I was born and raised in North Dakota, so very close to Canada. And yeah, I know the cold. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (03:32.262) Yeah. Yeah. Travis (03:36.302) We know what's coming too, yeah. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (03:36.393) you Totally. Travis (03:41.976) Yeah. Well, let's get into the episode here now and kind of the content here. So we're going to talk about, you know, kind of as we set it up, the topic of foster care and, you know, navigating the holidays and all of the things there. For all of that, tell us a little bit more about just the organization chosen you're representing and what you guys do there. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (04:03.197) Yeah, CHOSEN is an organization, as you said, that we are looking to lean in, in this space where people have experienced a lot of trauma and often foster care and adoption is just really rife with challenges associated with that. And so we really believe that parents and caregivers are the critical agent of change for their families. And so often we find where a child is fully resourced and has lots of services, but the parents and what they bring to the table isn't often considered. And so because we believe that parents and caregivers are so critical to the healing of their kids, we want to come alongside and equip them. We do that in a couple of ways. One is parent coaching. So that's life on life training, as Karen Fervis used to say, throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks, just really trying to figure things out together. You also get crisis support in the moment with your care manager. So I just really love our model of coming alongside families in their crisis moments. And then my job as the director of training and content we were realizing as we were working with these families that their networks were just very also often poorly resourced and not trauma informed. And it was a source of significant frustration for families. And so now we also provide really critical training to parents, caregivers and professionals in this space, trying to find gaps where there's gaps in necessarily maybe a population or also gaps in topics. and really taking that trauma-informed lens and trying to go deeper to provide resources for, again, parents and caregivers, but also professionals in this space. Courtney (05:36.011) Yeah, very important work for sure. Okay, so we're going to dive into this episode in navigating the holidays. But I have question to ask you two. So Travis, when you're walking through Target and you happen to see that big holiday aisle that's now up super early, what emotions and feelings does that bring up for you? Travis (05:57.238) Well, I first going to clarify how early because if this is like July, probably what's first rising up is some anger of our consumerism and not really getting the nostalgia at that point. But and then also probably wish kids are with me at that time, too. you know, yeah, I think it's more like kind of in the season and stuff like that and kind of looking ahead. For me, it is a nostalgia. And I think my own family background and memories were. Courtney (06:05.471) No kidding. Travis (06:25.704) And then even as we were foster parents, just some great times with the kids. So that would be, yeah, more of the lighthearted fun side. Courtney (06:36.479) Yeah, Bethany, how about you? Bethany Hall (Chosen) (06:38.427) Yeah, I would agree. I'm I was very blessed to be in a family where I have a lot of really great memories of the holidays. We didn't have a lot of money growing up. And so we didn't get presents any time of the year except at Christmas. So I feel like probably as a child, the consumerism that you spoke to Travis, I was like, at least I know I'm going to get some good stuff around Christmas. Travis (06:54.902) All right. Courtney (06:55.078) Yeah. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (06:56.741) I also am not a big decorator, but at Christmas I love to decorate. So if I was in Target and all the holiday stuff was out, that would be my first thought is what little thing does my fireplace or my front door need this year? And my husband's saying, how much did I spend to save whenever I come home saying I saved so much at Target? Travis (07:14.211) Ha Courtney (07:16.755) Yeah, and I would say the same with you guys. Like I love traditions. I love the holidays. It just brings, I get so excited. And it's funny because I teach foster care classes and we throw up a picture of a Christmas tree with presents underneath. And we ask that question, like, what feelings does this make you feel or what do you think about when you see this? And the answers are very not united like ours were. They're very all over the place. And oftentimes that answer is based on their upbringing. and the trauma maybe they had around holidays or family dynamics around the holidays, whether they were good or bad. And so just a very interesting thing for us all to keep in mind of what our mindset might be is not necessarily what kids in our cares mindset is going to be. And oftentimes in my experience, it's often not what they're experiencing or thinking about. So I'm excited to be talking about this today. Bethany, one of your trainings that you guys have at CHOSEN helps families around the holidays. So tell us a bit more about that trading specifically if somebody is listening and they want to learn more after this episode. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (08:16.785) Yeah, we have a training called All Is Not Calm and it's born out of that sentiment that you discussed when my kids were younger and I had kids that had even more sensitive nervous systems than they do now and more recent trauma and challenges navigating things with birth families. Definitely my sentiments as the holidays approached were much more mixed than they are now that we have a little bit more stability in our home. And so as you said, as I work as well with foster and adoptive families doing these trainings, we talk about just some different ways that we can come alongside and plan and prepare for these holidays that are coming up to be able to be. aware of why it can be such a challenge. think that was maybe one of the first hurdles I had to get over is I thought like this came out of nowhere for me. I thought we were just business as usual. Let's like you said, like my background, love the holidays, super pumped. This is going to be amazing. And it was anything but amazing. And it was anything but like the title All Is Not Calm. Yeah, All Is Not Calm. And so that is just what the training is about is saying like, why is it that sometimes it feels like the wheels are falling off around the holidays? And what can we do to be a little bit more Travis (09:05.838) Hmm. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (09:26.191) active to make it a more enjoyable time not only for our kids but also for just our whole family. Courtney (09:33.633) love it. And it's just so important because like you said, I, you know, I've been foster parent for 17 years, but when I started this journey, I didn't have that lens, right? Like I just wasn't thinking about those things. And now I'm glad that they do often teach these things in foster parent training, but I didn't get that training when I started. And so it was something that I had to learn just through lived experience of, okay, that does not work. So yeah, it's just a very important thing. Travis (09:55.096) Ha Well, that is the most epic name for training ever and fitting title. mean, all's not calm. So true. So unpack Bethany a little bit more of helping us understand what is it about the holidays that bring up, you know, kind of the difficulty, whether for kids and care, but the dynamic of putting families together that come from different experiences. Courtney (10:02.239) Yeah. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (10:20.519) Yeah, so many once told me that expectations are premeditated resentment. And it really deeply resonated with me because I thought so many of the times, whether it's in my marriage or in my parenting journey, the times that I'm most frustrated, angry, disappointed often are because there was an expectation that wasn't communicated or that was unrealistic. And sometimes, in fact, quite often, I think it's things that we don't even realize we have expectations about. And I think that was particularly true for me in the holidays, because everything had always gone a certain way, I just felt like, well, there's no expectation there. That's just how it goes until things didn't go that way. And I was like, actually, that was a pretty intense expectation that I had there. So I think expectations are a big challenge because around the holidays, like we all have expectations as parents, we all have expectations as spouses. But around the holidays, you're also now navigating often expectations of extended family. You're navigating maybe heightened personal expectations of like that picture perfect memory or photo or experience. And so we just come in with so many more heightened expectations and where there's that gap, the greater the gap between expectation and reality, I think the greater the potential for anger and frustration, resentment, meltdowns, crying, myself included, right? So I think a big piece of it is expectations and managing those on the front end. But then like you said, for our kids, like we're bringing together oftentimes, many different traditions, many different backgrounds, maybe personal experiences of our kids that were really hard, really horrible during the holidays that they're bringing in that might be triggering. We have a lack of structure, a lack of like the days flow very differently, kids are out of school. And so all of those things that decrease what we call felt safety or just feeling like, I know what comes next, I know what's gonna happen. I have a sense of... control over my environment, over what I'm my choices, all the things. I think you put putting those two things together and it makes a lot of sense that often the holidays can be super challenging for our kiddos. Travis (12:22.946) Yeah, I was just, made me think too of like, that aspect too of, of if you're a kid that, know, whatever you came from, but entering into the space with another family who maybe it's incredibly fun and the whole, but there's a part of that scene though, too, that can just make you also then feel like, well, who is missing from my, you know, it almost is like can be, it would feel like maybe torture too of like, I wish they were here or I wish, you know, it's like all of those things. Wow. Courtney (12:54.163) And even just that thought of, shouldn't be celebrating with this family. I should be over here or I should be eating this instead of, know, just all those feelings that they are likely thinking about before the holidays, during the holidays, after the holidays. That we just have to these things in mind. Travis (12:57.87) Yeah. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (13:09.353) Yeah, and I think about even my adult children, feel like I think about how grief can re super like kind of bubble to the surface in different stages of life and even different decades. And so I see my adult kids and I talked to a lot of my friends that also have maybe older kids that now have children themselves and they see traditions that their kids are experiencing with our family that they never got with us and that can bring up grief and loss and just feeling like, like you said, almost kind of like survivor's guilt of like, I have all this, but maybe my other biological siblings or my biological parents didn't have. And so I think definitely even through the years, I've seen my kids grieve when they were little in a certain way and certain things. And now that they're adults, re grieving some of the things that surround holidays. I don't know if you've had that experience with your kids, Courtney. Courtney (14:00.646) definitely. Yep. Almost every single one of them, to be honest. Courtney (14:08.063) Okay, so thinking about holidays, thinking about preparation. Let's talk a little bit about that preparation and how could a parent or caregiver prepare themselves for the upcoming holidays? Bethany Hall (Chosen) (14:20.169) Yeah, I think the biggest thing for me has been adjusting and first really recognizing what are my expectations going in. I think I remember the first time I thought we're gonna do the lights, right? Like there's so many pretty lights around my house and we're gonna get in there and we're gonna drive for hours and everybody's gonna sing Christmas carols and nobody's gonna argue and my floorboards aren't gonna be covered in a sticky mess of popcorn and whatever they were drinking and we're just gonna have so much fun in like 10 or 15 minutes in. everybody was bugging each other and I can't see and get out of my way and there was just so much chaos and I was just so discouraged and whether it be like you know lights or it be us wanting to read the Christmas story or have this like really awesome photo as a family I had to really as I was getting ready for the holidays I think say like let's get honest with myself Bethany like what are your expectations what are your hopes for this and then really just trying to think about are these really realistic for this year and I think understanding that every year is going to be different and just because maybe this year isn't going to look exactly how I want or we can't engage in this tradition doesn't mean that's forever. And it's okay to say like I have a new placement or I have a kid that's been gone through some particularly hard things this year and they're just not able to engage in a way that maybe even they want to. And so we're going to keep it small this year and we're just going to be okay with that. So I think Planning as my preparing as a parent to me is like looking at what are my expectations and are they realistic for what where my kids at this year for where our families at this year for the number of kids that we have for how we want to engage with bio family and just starting there because we can't adjust them if we don't know what they are. Courtney (16:05.997) Yeah, so good. Yeah, that realistic expectations. It's not that we don't have expectations because we're always going to, right? But just making sure that they're realistic and that they can be changed, right? Like if we realize, hey, I had this expectation and it's not working, we gotta be flexible. We gotta be willing to change. Shift gears. Travis (16:20.59) Mm-hmm. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (16:20.593) Yeah. Yeah. And I think along with that, I've had to do some grieving, you know, like to talk to a trusted friend to Travis (16:26.318) you Bethany Hall (Chosen) (16:28.905) to talk to a therapist and just say, you know, this is what I really wanted this year. And I just don't think it's realistic to expect that of my kids, but that just makes me really sad. And I think as a culture, as we've become a little more trauma informed, I hear a lot of talk about like, we can't put our emotions on our kids. And that's a hundred percent true. But I think sometimes we then think that my emotions just don't matter. I have to stuff them down because I can't put them on my kids. And honestly, like that never works well for me. I think I have to recognize like those feelings have to go somewhere. They just can't go on my kids. Travis (16:37.56) you Bethany Hall (Chosen) (16:59.071) And so being intentional about talking to my spouse or a friend or my therapist about, you know, what were my expectations and how did those not get met or how do I think that we have to adjust them and how do I feel about that? I think it's helpful for me to accept my reality, but I first have to kind of grieve what I thought it would be or what I'd hoped it would be. Travis (17:18.967) Hmm. And the other part of that I love that you said too is taking a pulse of your own sort of family in that season that maybe changes in another season. It may not have been the same, but to be really sensitive and aware to how are we right now. And this is different than the last Christmas, which may have been more wide open or, you know, all of that. So yeah, I think I really love that too of taking a look at yourself. So the second part of this conversation, feels like there's two parts. One is like that sense of inside our own walls and how are we doing? How are our expectations as parents? And then what's all happened there? And then taking the show on the road, you know, bring it to other family members or maybe they come to us. how many, you know, with all the traveling and all that kind of stuff with Extended Family, you know, what are your tips and advice to helping prepare Extended Family to to more understanding some of these dynamics. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (18:20.615) Yeah. I was joking with another foster.mom the other day of like, I love the holidays because not only do I get to manage my own emotions and my kids emotions, but now I get to manage all my extended family's emotions all in one small room, right? So I think it's just challenging because again, you know, there's that aunt that brings that special food that she is really hurt when your kids gag on it and refuse to eat it. And it's so embarrassing and you're dying a thousand deaths. But you're also like real talk, like I feel so bad for my kid. They shouldn't have to eat that thing. It's actually gross. Travis (18:30.476) Hahaha Courtney (18:32.931) Yeah. Travis (18:45.006) Ha Bethany Hall (Chosen) (18:51.123) and I choke it down every year. Right? it's just such a challenge and we want, we love our extended family too, right? And we want them to have a good experience. But often those are just really. Courtney (18:52.513) You Travis (18:53.431) All right. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (19:03.145) very much in contrast to what the expectations are of our extended family and how our kids are going to behave or engage in a social setting like that and what they can really handle. I think one of the things that's important is to give like the minimum necessary information, especially when we're talking like more extended family, you know, not everybody can handle all the information nor should they have all the information. So I try to think about like, what's the minimum information that my extended family needs to know to love my kids well? And maybe that's just like, hey, these kiddos that are with us this year, like they have some challenges around food. And so I just want to set the expectation that they're probably not going to eat anything that we make and that's okay. Like when you see them pounding Cheetos and Red Pop, like, you know, that might be hard for you, but this is what we have to do this year. And I think if you can get in front of that and kind of set the expectation for extended family early, it can be a little bit easier. Even if it's not their favorite, they can get behind it. If they kind of know what to expect there. And even just getting that them like on board, like ask, inviting them in, like, would you be willing to create space in your home where my kids can go if they're feeling overwhelmed? Because that very well might happen. And I think inviting them in like as an ally can sometimes be really helpful because then they feel like they're part of the solution versus it feeling just like they're kind of against whatever's going on. But I just find that sharing some of the things as far as like my kid might not be able to tolerate being with everybody for a long period of time, or they might not be able to the foods. Like I think giving a little bit of that information even without the reasons as to why, which might break your child's trust, you know just giving the basics can be really helpful. Courtney (20:43.809) Yeah, it's so I have this little thing. So my mom lives in North Dakota. I now live in Colorado. But every time before they come visit or we go visit and we've got a kid in care, I again don't divulge a lot of information, but I'll say something like you might notice this and just know there's a reason behind it. Right. Like I'm always like front loading. Like there's a reason reminding them there's a reason there's a reason this might seem strange to you, but there's a reason. And with my mom now, because we've been doing this for long enough, she doesn't need to ask all the questions. Like she gets it. She's like, OK, sometimes we literally will sit down in the living room. We have like a little before they just got here. Let's have a quick little meeting so you understand and then let's have a great week. You know, try to have a great week. And for the holidays a couple of years ago, we had a 14 year old in our house and we went to North Dakota for Christmas and she got to choose if she wanted to come with or not. And it was a hard decision, but she chose to come. And we got there and everything was going great until Christmas morning. And we had all the... Bethany Hall (Chosen) (21:20.041) Yeah. Travis (21:22.542) Hmm. Courtney (21:38.015) The table sat nicely and my daughter had made nameplates and all that. And she was walking to the dinner table and saw her name and like stopped dead in her tracks. and just went downstairs and she holed up in the room, in a room for a couple hours. And my mom was like really struggling with it. Like, hey, we can't start without her. We can't start without her. And I was like, you know what, mom, I got this. And everybody wanted to run after her. was like, no, she doesn't need everybody to run after her. Right now she just needs me to go let her know we are here. Do you want me to sit with you? Do you want me to leave you alone? She wanted to be left alone. And eventually she came up and we ended up having a great evening. But again, people just don't understand. I don't know what it was in that moment, but obviously something set her off, likely the grief and the loss and the hardships of not being with her family. And just seeing her name there that was like, I can't do this right now. And we need to be okay with that. Travis (22:27.874) Hmm. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (22:28.135) And I think sometimes that can be hard for us to have not ever knowing. Like I feel like for myself and for a lot of times my extended family, it's like they want to know why. Like, well, why was that so hard or why did that trigger her? And like a lot of times I don't even know if our kids know, like a lot of times they're like overwhelmed by emotion and they can't pinpoint a specific thing. And I think just helping myself and in our extended family to say like, you know what, it's honestly like we might not know. And that's not the most important thing. The most important thing is how we give space, how we come alongside. But I feel like it can be hard even for me sometimes to be like, I want to figure it out. I want to know the reason so that I can either prevent it from happening again or navigate it in a very specific way. And I find, I don't know about you Courtney, but I find oftentimes like I don't ever get the answer that I'm looking for. Courtney (23:12.134) Yeah, and I'll be very honest and say, you know, when I went downstairs and, followed her and I gave her the option, do you want me to sit with you? And I really would have sat with her. But there's the part of me inside that was like, I don't want to sit with you. I don't want to sit with you. I want to go with my family, you know, but I had to be OK in that moment, like to know again, my expectations and my traditions that I'm used to and that I'm wanting this moment I might have to give a little or a lot in the moment. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (23:22.963) You say no? Yes, totally. Travis (23:24.386) No. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (23:35.283) Yeah. We had another situation. One of my kids really struggled with opening presents, just with some executive function challenges, like no filter kind of a thing and all the pressure of everyone looking at her. And so one year, actually a couple of years in a row, I think she opened her presents alone and we videotaped it and she gave the best reactions. Like she just, and she wanted to give that to people, but she couldn't do it in the moment. And so we found that to be really helpful to just say, Travis (23:59.886) Hmm. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (24:02.217) You can open your presents in the basement. I'll videotape you opening a couple of them and saying thank you. And it was great for the people too, because they got to see her genuine reaction that wasn't clouded by the anxiety and the pressure of the specific moment. So that was like another fun kind of situation where it wasn't fun on the front end of seeing her like just really struggle to open presents and say thank you and not say something that would hurt someone's feelings. But like on the other side of it with this kind of tip and trick that we used ended up being a really awesome thing. Travis (24:31.112) I was going to ask you both, just hearing, you know, kind of similarities and kind of your past with a lot of experience and families. And Courtney, you set it up like where, your parents, your mom really been through this so much knows, you know, you have a rotational group of kids that year to year are different experiences. What would you guys say though, to some, you know, those out there that their families, maybe this is brand new, their extended family. And or they're not even really bought into the whole thing. I we all know about that where there's some judgment around, you know, the capacity. Should you guys be fostering or, you know, the coddling? mean, this doesn't seem we would never do this. I mean, when those conversations are harder or on the front end, you're getting the feel like, I don't know that this is going to go well. mean, can you either you go speak into like, where is the protection then come into how you even engage the holidays with? Bethany Hall (Chosen) (25:26.505) Courtney, you wanna start? Courtney (25:27.617) Yeah, I mean, for me, and again, this is hard for me to say because I love traditions. But honestly, if I can gauge something ahead of time and realize this is not going to be a good situation, then I would say you might have to give up that situation for this year or for this period. And I'm not a confrontational person, so it's hard for me. But one thing that I do is I try to find really good articles or I'll even make a post like on Facebook or on social media and just a reminder. So it's like, I hope you're reading this to everybody, all my friends, all my family members. so they can kind of see and I do that every once in just for people and a lot of times people will respond to me saying, I had no clue or my goodness, you opened my eyes to something and sometimes it's these tiny little things that I just like take for granted or think people should know and people every time, 100 % of the time say, wow, I had no clue. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (26:13.533) Yeah, I could not agree more that like you took the words out of my mouth. think sometimes if I'm getting a vibe like this is not going to go well, then sometimes I just don't go because I think it's not it's not really fair for the family and it's not fair for the kid for sure to put them in a situation that I already have a feeling is going to go very, very poorly. And like you said, too, I think it's one of those things where we can try to like dip the toe in the water, right? Send the article, have the little conversation, throw something out there and see how people respond. And I think people can do that. with their extended family to have a few conversations like you said, kind of that front loading, like, hey, how would you feel if this happened? Like if somebody, if our kids came and they refused to eat everything that you guys made, like would, you know, this is why it might happen and what would you feel about it? And if they have like a really big reaction, it's like, okay, that's not gonna go well. And maybe we make a middle ground and we invite them to our house that year or, you know, something that's gonna make it a little bit safer context. And if we can adjust it, I try to adjust it, but. there's definitely been years where we've had to just say no to certain things. And like you said, it breaks my heart because I get really stuck in like, I can't give this up this year. But it's just it's just not fair to the kids, especially to do something that I know going in my family isn't ready to handle. So I think if they're especially like you said, Travis, if they're new to the foster space and they already kind of have a feeling that there's some resistance there, especially when we first adopted my daughter, we had some family members that they did not fully buy into into racial adoption and I would not expose my daughter to a situation where they were going to make comments that I know would hurt her. And I think in those situations, I kind of look at it like this, like, there's no situation where somebody is not going to get their feelings hurt, given the current state. And so I will err on the side of hurting the feelings of somebody that I have a very long term relationship with and that's a grown adult that I can help navigate through that on the back end, then on this precious little kid that has no idea and doesn't get a say in it. So. Travis (27:43.426) Mm-hmm. Travis (28:08.654) That's really well said. Courtney (28:10.298) Very well said. Yeah. Yeah. And I tell people whenever they enter the realm of foster care, like you're getting training right now, but the real training begins when you start fostering these things come up. Right. And the one thing I always tell people over and over and over and over one thing I didn't realize, but I became licensed is how much I was going to educate other people. I didn't realize that was part of my role, but it is. If we want to be the best advocates for these kids, we need to realize we're going to be educating teachers, coaches, neighbors, friends, family members. that's this, the holidays are a huge part of that and getting other people to understand. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (28:42.749) Yeah, and I think because you and I are in this space, can like, at least I can forget, like I can feel like, everybody knows this, and then we'll have a class like this one we have coming up. And it's like, yeah, like they had no idea. And they're not trying to make this harder or hurt my kids feelings. They just really didn't know. So I'm always surprised every time I teach a class or do. podcast or something where people are like blown away and I forget I'm like, yeah, well, I've been in this space a long time. So I start to feel like everybody knows this stuff. And it's just not it's counterintuitive. And it's often really different than the experiences of most people that haven't been in the foster adopt space. Travis (29:17.634) Hmm. Courtney (29:18.645) Yeah. Okay, so we chatted a little bit about the parents, the caregivers, and then the extended family. What about the kids themselves? Because they are the, I'm going to say, the most important in this equation. So how can we prepare them for the holidays? Bethany Hall (Chosen) (29:29.095) Yeah, totally. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (29:33.223) You know, I think I kind of even before we jump into that one more thing I was thinking about that has to do with the kiddos to with extended family is just like trying to help people put themselves in the shoes of that child of like, can you imagine going to somebody's house that you never met for one of your favorite days of the year, or maybe your worst day of the year that has like really scary and sad triggers for you and you're in this house with people that you maybe know two of the people and everyone else you don't know, smells are different. The traditions are different. The exp... Travis (29:45.016) Mm-hmm. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (30:03.099) expectations, right? Of like, like you said, even things like how we do names or how we do gratitude at Thanksgiving, like all of these little things where there's like unspoken expectations of what's going to come next or what people are expected to participate in. And just imagine what that would be like where you're not sure what everybody's expecting of you. You're not sure what comes next. Everything feels really different. I think sometimes that can help not only our extended family, but ourselves to remember how disorienting this experience can be, particularly for a child that's a newer placement. But I do feel like there's lots of things like little things that we can do. Like one of them, just a very practical as I always bring the kids favorite snacks. like food, it can be a really big issue. And I think again, with the expectations for a kid to go in and feel like I'm going to be hungry all day, which, you know, being hangry is never anybody's best look. And so it's like, okay, I'm going in. don't like any of these really different foods that a lot of people don't eat on the normal basis. Right. And these are all my options. And so I often will get with the kids and say, what are two or three things that are packed Travis (30:53.09) So so so so so Bethany Hall (Chosen) (31:05.301) that we can take with us that you can for sure have. And this is where they're going to be at, at this house that we're going to be at. I think that's really helpful. think when you are going to meet a bunch of extended family, like trying to give pictures, and especially with an older kid, giving them like a talking point, right? Like this is Uncle Tim and he loves to hunt. Like if you get caught in a corner with him, ask him about the last time he went deer hunting. Like especially for older kids, I feel like it's so much pressure. Like they're going to come up to this kid and they're going to be like, hey, how are you? I'm Uncle Tim. And they're going to be like, gosh, What do I even say? I don't know this guy at all. So I like to give especially older kids some talking points of like, you don't have to engage in conversation, but if you want to, here's some tips and tricks. Here are some of the key players that are gonna be there at this holiday event. And I think that can sometimes really help them to just feel a little bit empowered to go into the situation. I kinda know a couple things that I can do. I don't know, what about you Courtney? What are some things that you found to be helpful? Courtney (32:01.409) Yeah, kind of what you're just saying. Another thing is giving them the words, but also role playing, like sitting down and role playing, like this is what it's going to look like. And sometimes I show them pictures of past years or, you know, we have some strange foods we eat. So we'll say a word and they're like, I don't know what that is. I can show them or even make it ahead of time. So they're like, Hey, you want to taste this ahead of time? See if you like it. If not, let's add something else to the, you know, to the menu for the day. Yeah. Any of those things to help them know what's coming. Travis (32:19.97) Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Bethany Hall (Chosen) (32:20.521) Great idea. Travis (32:25.358) Okay. Courtney (32:29.471) because again, it can be so unpredictable to begin with. And then like you said, different religions, different cultures, different foods, different, do we give gifts, do we not give gifts? All that stuff can be so different. So really setting them up to know what to expect when that day comes. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (32:46.195) Yeah, and it can just be a good exercise to try to think through what might actually be traditions and expectations. Because like you said, when we're in it, it just feels like normal to us. But when we really start to break it down and think through what it might be looked like from the lens of an outsider or somebody that's never been a part of our family, religion, traditions, expectations, like I think that can also be helpful for us to identify places that might be pain points. for a child that's in that experience. Some of the families I coach will regularly, first of all, have an exit strategy like you talked about, like be willing to bail. If it's just really everybody's imploding and it's not going well, have an exit strategy. But even built into the day, have touch points. A family that I coach was like, okay, every two hours we're gonna meet up in this room and we're gonna talk about how are you doing? Let's just do a check-in. Have you had a snack? Have you had water? Is some weird cousin cornering you and talking to you about some topic that you don't like you know anything about you know like just doing those check-ins I think that your kid can count on like okay I only have to wait another 20 minutes and I can brush her chicken because holidays can get busy like a lot of times I'm cooking or I'm in charge of you know some other activity and so time just all of a sudden it's like gosh four hours have passed and so having like something on my watch or my phone to say check-in time let's let's jump together and see how the kids are doing I think can also help things from building and escalating over the day and not realizing it. Courtney (33:39.489) You Travis (33:39.658) Alright. Courtney (34:06.559) Yeah, and you mentioned it earlier as well, but another one is making sure they know where their safe place is, especially if it's in a new place. So if we go to a new house they haven't been to before, it's the holidays or even other holidays, but we walk and I'll show them like, this is an area that you can go to if you need some alone time. Or, you know, sometimes we'll do even a little like, hey, touch your nose like this. And that means like, Courtney, I need you right now, you know, and have those little things ahead of time set up and show them that day. So they, you know, when they're caught in the moment, they know exactly where they can go. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (34:33.671) Ian, that's such a connecting thing, right? Like having a secret signal or a secret word with a kid that you're building connection with is just so powerful of like, this is our secret thing and you can get my attention and I'm gonna know exactly what you need. No one else is gonna know. I think it also is just such a unifying thing that we can utilize during the holidays too. Courtney (34:51.179) Definitely. Travis (34:53.204) We got through this together. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (34:55.333) you Courtney (34:59.783) Awesome. Well, I'm curious to know because we've been talking a lot about traditions and we're from different places. Travis actually grew up in North Dakota as well, which is funny because now living in Tennessee, me live in Colorado. But what are some of your favorite holiday traditions? Bethany Hall (Chosen) (35:09.033) you Bethany Hall (Chosen) (35:15.145) Travis, what's yours? Travis (35:16.462) so we have, think like when our families gather around Christmas, we have tons of, my gosh, there's, I've, there's six of us siblings. So with all the grand, we have like, I don't know, there's 40 grandkids right now. so it's wild, but we have every year we've had a white elephant gift exchange and, and our white elephants are the kind where the peer ones where it's like the weirder, more bizarre, the goodwill. mean, goodwill is a treasure trove for. for whales and stuff. yeah, just funny kind of gifts exchange where you're also not spending a ton of money and then you get something really bizarre to laugh at and all that kind of stuff. then just, yeah, just, I don't know. I think of it as just these fun party type things like that with cousins and stuff like that. So that's kind of always been a thing for us. What about you guys? Bethany Hall (Chosen) (36:06.385) Yeah, we, the lights I kind of alluded to. That's just something I love. I think there's something magical about the dark with all the lights and we have some areas near our house where like the entire cul-de-sac is on the same like light shows. So their lights are kind of in sync with music that you can tune into on your radio. just feel like those are epic. So I love packing us all into one car and just going around to some of these little local areas where they have really great lights. And we also have we have a candlelight service at our church every year where we sing again with just the that feel like home, right? Like we always sing some of the very same songs, everyone lights the candle. I have pictures of my kids growing up through the years, like really, really little, holding a candle and I'm hoping that they're not gonna burn down the entire sanctuary all the way up to big teenagers now participating in it. And so that's another really special tradition that we have. Courtney (36:59.241) I love it. Yeah, it's hard for me to pinpoint one tradition again, because I just love the holidays so much. But for me, I just think about food. We make so many cookies after Thanksgiving, like dozens and dozens of cookies, and we bring them to neighbors. We bring them to everybody. And then for Christmas, we always have the same meal. We have pierogies. Travis, do know what pierogies are? OK. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (37:03.977) you Travis (37:18.496) Yeah, do. I mean, some left so for dessert later. Courtney (37:22.537) Yeah, so we make pierogies on Christmas. And then the cool thing is I've realized, again, like just being mindful of our kids. We have three kids that are from Ethiopia and they love their food. And one thing that I like is that their Christmas is not on same day as our Christmas. So we can do Christmas twice and have these great big meals like my, what my culture was and then their culture as well. So we've incorporated that. We always have Ethiopian on Ethiopian Christmas, which is the beginning of January. So super fun. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (37:48.647) That's amazing. And that's something we didn't even touch on. But I think like asking your kids like what what things were meaningful to you if you did have positive memories, I think that can be really awesome to learn. You know, like you said, what what do you remember about your family of origin or your culture of origin? And how can you teach me? I think there's something so empowering about saying to a kid like teach me I want to learn about who you are and what is part of your history. So I've loved that. Like I said, we lived in Mexico and one of my kiddos shares that she loves this special dessert and it's like apples and crema and nuts and so like she taught me how to make it and now we make it every single year and it's it's just really fun to learn about their history their culture the good memories they have because even if they have a lot of really bad memories if they can have one or two good memories that you can really capitalize on and help them just to nurture some of the positive things that was about their history or about their family of origin. just feel like it's such a way to honor even what may have been a really hard situation. Like we know, having been in this space a long time, like nine times out of 10, these people really loved their kids and really wanted what was best for them. Probably 10 times out of 10. And there just was a lot of challenges, you know, and trauma probably in their own lives. And so I just love trying to dig deep and find something even for my kids. Travis (38:53.24) Mm-hmm. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (39:07.785) if it's only one thing, like do you have anything that you remember that was positive and how can we honor that and kind of and just kind of build some honor and the holidays around that in their traditions. Courtney (39:17.921) Yeah, and with that, empowering the birth families, especially in the rebel foster care, but also adoption, but in the rebel foster care, empowering those birth families. And one way we can do that is by asking them, like, what are your traditions? What are your, how do you celebrate? Do you want to celebrate with us? And, you know, getting gifts and, you know, if they can't afford it, getting a gift and wrapping it up and making it from them and just any way that we can empower them and bring them in and make them feel like we're welcoming them and welcoming their heritage, their traditions. It helps the whole situation. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (39:21.523) Mm-hmm. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (39:47.047) Yeah, and often it's just so uncomfortable for them. And so if we can put ourselves in situations of discomfort or stretch ourselves a little bit to bridge that gap, I recently got the opportunity to go with my daughter's biological aunt, who also recently placed triplets for adoption. And so I got to go on one of their first visits with her and her adoptive mama for triplets and really just be her point person because she felt awkward. And she was like, what am I going to say? And how is it going to feel when Travis (39:50.19) Mm-hmm. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (40:17.191) I refer to her as their mom and like it just felt very overwhelming for her and knowing and seeing the relationship that we've had with her sister over the years has been really comforting to her and she's like I've seen how you've welcomed my sister into your family. I've seen the open adoption that you've had and I really want that and so being the bridge for her and saying like you know do you want to go get some presents for the girls in the next couple of weeks together and you can give them to them and just like you said really just trying to put ourselves in a position that might be a little uncomfortable for us or might cost us a little bit for the sake of empowering them and sharing of our, you know, wealth isn't just money. Wealth is like emotional resources and time. And so I think sometimes it's almost easier for me to just like slap some money on it and that, you know, that is... evidence of my privilege, but also just being willing to say like, what really is needed here is time, is connection, is listening, is asking them to teach me about what's important to them. think sometimes can be even more meaningful. Travis (41:19.264) I this this kind of ending part of what you know, you both have said it just to me is one of the most powerful parts of this entire segment. It's it's timeless in the sense that isn't around just holidays. I think what we're saying here, too, is just the the there's a great line that says grace is the only thing in the world more powerful than shame. And I just think that there's something to when, like you said, Bethany, of where a kid is coming to her care. And yes, we're here to bring stability and love on them. But they bring something. You're kind of mining the depths of what are they? They are bringing something to us of value of beyond themselves, too, of just their experiences, their family's history, their culture. And yeah, I love how you said like to look at that is to give them a deeper dignity than just that you're in our care and we're going to care for you. Like you're bringing something to us of great value in the maybe short time that we have you. And we want to find that together. And yeah, it's really dignifying. So. Yeah. Well, thanks for all the wisdom and really, really practical insights shared, you know, especially for the holidays. But I think this is there's so many other things we can grab on to as far as tips for just all around the year. So as we close this out, Bethany, where where can people find trainings through chosen any other resources you kind of to mention around chosen or any other things you'd like to say to close this out? Bethany Hall (Chosen) (42:45.917) I think the easiest way is just to go to chosen.care and from there you can navigate. know, we are always looking for people who are nonprofit and if you are passionate about coming alongside families and equipping them as agents of change, like go to our donor page on that landing site. If you're interested in trainings, we are always offering national level trainings for yourself, for somebody that you know, or for an organization. And if you know they're interested in parent directed services, that life and life coaching, all that can be found at chosen.care. We also have a lots of free resources that myself and our team have created. And so always just going, there's downloadable tools, there's blogs, there's all kinds of just free resources there as a starting point, but they can always find that at just chosen.care. Courtney (43:33.889) Well, thank you. Yeah, we sure appreciate you being with us today and sharing. is, again, just an important topic for people to never forget about, to keep on the forefront of our minds during the holidays. During the holidays and always, it's because it's not just Christmas and Thanksgiving. It's Mother's Day. It's Father's Day. It's Fourth of July. You know, all these things can bring up this grief and the ambiguous loss and the things that we need to be remembering as the caregivers of the kids. Travis (43:34.264) thing. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (43:50.429) Yeah, totally. Travis (44:02.594) Thanks for being on today. Bethany Hall (Chosen) (44:04.029) Thank you so much for having me. It's been a blast. Courtney (44:06.855) Bye.
