- Sex trafficking is a significant issue in the U.S., often overlooked.
- Foster youth are particularly vulnerable to trafficking due to lack of family support.
- Addiction often stems from trauma experienced in childhood.
- The majority of youth in foster care have experienced some form of addiction.
- Poverty is a major issue for former foster youth, often linked to lack of education and support.
- Continuity in care and relationships is crucial for the well-being of foster youth.
- Predators often pose as family figures to exploit vulnerable youth.
- Community involvement is essential in supporting foster families and youth.
- Teaching life skills, such as budgeting, can help foster youth succeed after care.
- Connection and support can significantly reduce the risk of addiction and poverty.
TRANSCRIPT:
Courtney (00:01.719)
Hello and welcome to the Foster Friendly Podcast. Today we have another series special on the Go Upstream series that we’re doing based on Brian Mavis’ new book called Go Upstream. So Brian, you and I already recorded a couple of episodes. If you haven’t listened to those, you might wanna go back. You might wanna listen to those. You don’t necessarily have to listen to them in order, but it might be helpful to listen to all of them at some point if you haven’t.
Brian Mavis (00:20.003)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (00:27.159)
Episode 64 was we covered the social wounds of trauma, physical illness, and suicide. And what are we covering today, Brian?
Brian Mavis (00:34.54)
Yeah. Yeah, we’re doing the next three wounds and that are sex trafficking, addiction and poverty. So definitely want to give a little warning out there. If there are any parents listening to this and there’s little ears around, you might want to hit stop or pause and wait when you have a little bit more private time to listen to this because
Of course, these topics are grown up topics.
Courtney (01:07.607)
Yeah, for sure. Okay, well, let’s dive in and talk about sex trafficking. You we also recently recorded an episode on electronics and kind of talked about this a little bit, about, you know, the electronic side of it, but we’re getting a little bit deeper today about talking about trafficking. And it’s interesting because my husband and I used to lead a foster care, orphan care, we called it ministry in our church. And when we brought up sex trafficking, it was amazing how many people, this was just eight years ago, maybe.
Brian Mavis (01:18.915)
Yeah.
Courtney (01:36.759)
how many people in there were like, well, this isn’t an issue. This isn’t a big deal in the United States. That’s like overseas. And I feel like a lot of people still can have that mentality of not realizing the severity of this in our own culture and country.
Brian Mavis (01:49.824)
Yeah, it’s a real thing. And of course it’s hidden. I suppose if you want to go find it, you can. it’s also, even though some people might find it hard to believe that it’s an issue in our country where there are thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of young adults and kids, not even adults, who being trafficked. It is…
I had to say it’s kind of one of those, at least it’s being talked about. And that’s kind of the point of my book is, hey, we’ve got these social issues that we’re covering. And today, one of them being sex trafficking. And at least it’s being talked about when foster care isn’t. Ironically, kids who age out of foster care are leading the pipeline into being trafficked.
Courtney (02:23.329)
Hmm.
Brian Mavis (02:46.134)
And so I started each chapter of every wound with a true story. And this one, a little different. I definitely know kids who have been trafficked. and unfortunately, it’s something that doesn’t get talked about much. it’s definitely under reports trafficking is sometimes kids go into foster care because they’ve been trafficked by their own parents. And you can’t imagine why a parent would want to do that. And it’s because.
Courtney (03:08.407)
Hmm.
Brian Mavis (03:16.152)
They don’t have cash, they do have a child and they need drugs. It comes down to that a lot of times. But in this story, it starts off and it was a bit more of generic rather than me identifying a specific person. I was talking to a caseworker in a large West Coast County. Okay, Los Angeles.
Courtney (03:42.272)
Yeah.
Brian Mavis (03:42.382)
I don’t reveal it in the book, but that’s what it is. And she had this phrase as we were talking about kids who were aging out at 18, they would get a stipend to be able to rent a room. And she said, when kids age out, she said, the good families won’t take them, but the pimps will take them. And I was like, man, it just hit so hard.
Courtney (04:08.172)
Hmm.
Brian Mavis (04:11.17)
because it was just, mean, obviously that statement is visceral. Having good families, quote unquote, say, we won’t do it, but the bad people will. And so when you dig into that a little bit, what you see is that these predators, you know,
Courtney (04:26.037)
Yeah.
Brian Mavis (04:37.614)
they’ll kind of fill in this role. It’s a counterfeit for sure, but there’ll be a counterfeit family and they’ll even refer to themselves as daddy or refer to the girls that they pimp out as wifey. And they’ll just kind of use these counterfeit family kinds of terms to have these vulnerable young
youth fall prey to them. And so it was just a profound statement that hit me hard when she said it that bluntly to me.
Courtney (05:19.696)
Yeah, yeah, that is very blunt, but also very true. And it’s a sad reality a lot of times of not enough families to begin with, and then not enough families for the teenagers, the ones that are getting older, the ones that are aging out.
Brian Mavis (05:27.789)
Yeah.
Brian Mavis (05:33.036)
Yeah, and these predators know that and they’ll specifically look at group homes and the kids have aged out, they’re particularly vulnerable. They’ve got an instinct for knowing which kids they can coerce and tempt into this.
Courtney (05:53.025)
So who is at risk? Is this just a girl thing, just foster care? Who’s at risk here?
Brian Mavis (05:55.47)
Yeah, know that, yeah, when you think about human trafficking and sex trafficking, you tend to, and I’ve been even using that language of like, it’s the girls who are at risk and they are the predominant ones, but maybe not as much as you think. So in some samples that is like anywhere up to 30, even 40 % of the youth who are being trafficked,
were boys and they also kind of use this family language of the refer to them as, know, being part of the brotherhood, but they also just in my research, I found that they use a lot of feminizing nicknames and those kinds of things. so they do fall through the cracks. I don’t mention this in the book, but I know a few years ago, I’m close friends with
the person who started a ministry for having beds devoted just to boys who had been rescued from trafficking. And what they told me was in all the world, there’s only a couple hundred beds devoted to the boys who have been rescued. And so they are overlooked. Even when they’re rescued, then they usually aren’t helped.
Courtney (07:21.077)
Wow. Yeah, definitely eye opening for me. I mean, I didn’t know that and I do just naturally think about girls or, know, teen.
Brian Mavis (07:27.5)
Yeah, yeah. And again, I don’t they are the majority, but they aren’t the exclusive. Yeah.
Courtney (07:31.659)
the only. Yeah. Okay, so some stats about boys, girls, also stats between foster care and trafficking. What are the patterns that stand out and maybe even why? Why? Why is this a thing?
Brian Mavis (07:44.751)
Yeah. it, know, the, first of all, when kids are being rescued from being trafficked, I found tons of stats and they are, there are wide ranging of like what percentage of these, uh, rescued people are, uh, have been in foster care. And so the white right anywhere from like 50 % to 90%.
have even found some that were more than 90%. Nearly 100 % who were rescued as a group were from foster care. So suffice it to say, I never found one less than 50%. So the majority who are rescued have had foster care experience. And as I mentioned just a little bit earlier, group homes in particular are targeted.
Other thing that I learned that just, gosh, it just hit so hard. This isn’t just about kids who’ve aged out, who get trafficked. It’s kids who are in foster care, who are in a group home, who maybe ran away. So the average first rescue for someone who’s been trafficked and they’re rescued, the average age is 14. And they’ve been trafficked for two years up to that point.
So they were being trafficked starting at 12 years old on average. so it’s the, and again, you’re like, well, it sounds like within foster care, it’s actually the problem. No, the problem is, that there aren’t enough families who are actually protecting these kids. So they, they ended up going to facilities and the facilities aren’t equipped and the kids don’t really feel like, I still don’t have, have a real family.
And so I don’t want to demean all facilities. are good ones and there are bad ones. But it’s particularly the bad ones that these kids are vulnerable to being trafficked.
Courtney (09:55.949)
Yeah, and I even know of a case here in our county of a girl, I believe she was 11, in foster care and got trafficked, ran away, you know, searching for her. think, got to think that’s probably common too for kids that are in a good foster home, but they’re just more vulnerable because of their background, because of things they’ve been exposed to, that it just leads them down maybe this path as well.
Brian Mavis (10:05.763)
Yeah.
Brian Mavis (10:18.304)
Yes, and that kind of leads a segue into what I think we ought to talk about is like what drives them into being especially vulnerable. So, you know, we’ve already mentioned it, but I’ll make it explicit. First of all, it’s just group homes and they just, it’s not a family environment. So there’s no attachment happening there. So that makes them vulnerable. Secondly, a history of sexual abuse.
Courtney (10:28.3)
Yeah.
Courtney (10:40.695)
Hmm.
Brian Mavis (10:46.7)
That’s the reason that they got into foster care is because they were being abused sexually and this makes them even more vulnerable for future abuse. Third is runaway. And when they run away and they’re homeless, again, very vulnerable, they’re needing some sort of protection and the predators promise that they’ll protect them. Of course they don’t. Then just frequent placements.
and moves, which just erodes kind of that oversight and then it’s easy to just not, they fall through the cracks. And then fifthly, just this relational vacuum that has occurred in their lives. And then going back to where then the predators put on this false counterfeit impersonation of a family.
And so all those things make kids in care and kids have been in care especially vulnerable.
Courtney (11:51.864)
Yeah, thinking about them looking for belonging and identity and somebody that’s promising all this stuff. can imagine why kids would fall into that, especially at those ages where they can’t think clearly through all this stuff themselves and trying to figure out who they are. Yeah, super sad. So, you know, I think about this work and I think a lot of people think naturally it’s like law enforcement. That’s kind of their role. Their job is to help in this area. What about those of us who aren’t in law enforcement?
Brian Mavis (12:02.254)
.
Yeah.
Brian Mavis (12:08.546)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (12:20.629)
what can the common person do about this situation?
Brian Mavis (12:20.663)
Right?
Yeah. If you’re not part of the FBI or police or a judge, you know, you’re like, well, then what can I do? And I mean, that’s a good question. And I just heard this secondhand, but I’ve heard it before firsthand, but just to you again, more most recently, just a few weeks ago, a some of the police department in South Dakota had said the best thing.
anybody can do to help prevent human trafficking, sex trafficking is to be a foster parent. That was from a cop whose job is specifically on this issue. so right there it was just say, hey, if you really care about human trafficking, then you need to care about foster care because if you step into that space to be a family for this kid,
then you could hopefully prevent them from that vulnerability. And so there’s that. Now, if you can’t foster, then of course there’s other things that you can do to help the families who have. again, this is, I’ve said this before in other podcasts and it is just, I’m not,
I’m not an advocate if it takes a village to raise a child. I’m an advocate of a, it takes a family to raise a child, but it takes a village to support a family. And so be part of that, be their village, be their community that says, we’ll help you with counseling or rides or mentorship or just those kinds of things. So the kids don’t have to end up in a group home or have multiple placements. You can definitely be.
Brian Mavis (14:17.088)
a part of the solution and assisting a way that keeping a kid from being vulnerable to being trafficked.
Courtney (14:24.503)
Yeah, good words there. You also, you’re a wise man and you often have these great one liners. as you’re just thinking about this, again, it’s just, it’s a hard topic. It’s a topic I don’t think we hear about it, but it’s like, like we just talked about, well, then what can I do? But what’s the wise word from Brian, lying, to close this out?
Brian Mavis (14:47.502)
Yeah, just to of sum this up, and I don’t have any of these in my book, just so the special thing for this podcast, it would be just to realize that predators pose as families, but real families are prevention to predators. And so that would be the summary.
Courtney (14:52.138)
you
Courtney (15:11.659)
Be a family, maybe, yeah.
Brian Mavis (15:12.866)
Be a family. You’re going to keep hearing that over and over again in this book.
Courtney (15:18.618)
Yeah. And there’s got to be a correlation as well. You didn’t mention it, but there’s got to be a correlation to, I would assume, a lot of these young girls and boys who have been preyed upon, the lack of fatherhood, the lack of like that as well, it’s just like the family unit. And so I think that’s also probably a big under arching theme in your book is the family unit is so important. And if you don’t have, know, that’s the thing that you have to have, know, single moms, single dads can do great things, but take
Brian Mavis (15:41.323)
Absolutely, yeah.
Courtney (15:46.923)
getting your people around you, and caring for if you have a teenage boy having a guy mentor, how important that is. Yeah.
Brian Mavis (15:49.487)
Yeah, and so have a guy around for sure. if yeah, even if you’re a single mom who’s fostering or you’re not fostering your single mom, have a safe, healthy man in these kids lives, boy and girl. You know, find safe ways to do it, but they need.
Brian Mavis (16:16.494)
They need healthy masculinity and they need somebody to know that there’s a man that is cares about them and is protecting them and honoring their identity in a pure and empowering way. Yeah, for sure.
Courtney (16:36.951)
Okay, well that was sex trafficking. Moving on to social number five in your book, addiction. I feel like this is, I get asked all the time, people just have a misunderstanding as well in foster care, why kids come into care. And we’ve had over 70 kids now in and out of our house. And I would say the majority of them have come because some sort of addiction in their caregiver, usually the mom or dad, their life, addiction is often tied to it. So click, kick this off with your story.
Brian Mavis (16:42.616)
Mm-hmm
Brian Mavis (16:58.798)
Yeah. Yep.
Totally agree.
Courtney (17:06.197)
Marcella’s story and why use that.
Brian Mavis (17:07.446)
Yeah, so yeah, I got to meet Marcella and she told her story and it was, gosh, some of these kids, what they experience and so young of an age. And I go into detail in what she shares there in the book, but just, you know, I won’t do that here. But in general, she was exposed to her mom’s drug use very early and in some extreme ways. And then she was molested.
And then all that led to her own substance use and abuse. And so this, you know, when she did it, a lot of this addiction and drug use is an attempt to anesthetize their own wounds and pain and harm that they experienced as a youth. And so of course that’s a false, you know, it’s a false.
And that’s just how do you say that word? But you know, it’s a it’s false answer to a problem that they have But it makes sense you go to what you know, and that was essentially, you know What she was saying was like that’s what I knew to do. That’s what I saw and so it
Like you said, so many kids go into care because of their parents’ use and abuse of drugs. They’ve seen it. They may have been encouraged to participate in it. And it’s just what they do. They go to what they know.
Courtney (18:46.743)
Yeah, we did one of our foster con webinars, understanding biofamilies. were chatting with a guest called, her name is Brenna Hunter, and she was just sharing, you for her addiction was a solution to the trauma she was experiencing. It was just the wrong solution, you know, and she really shares her journey and it was like, yeah. But yeah, I had never really thought about it that way, but she’s like, this is a solution. This is a solution to things I’ve gone through. This is a solution to a lot of people like me. It’s just the wrong one.
Brian Mavis (19:01.486)
Yes. Ah, there you go. You said it better than me. I’m to go in and edit my book and use that line. Yep.
Courtney (19:16.727)
So yeah, you also talk about addiction being before, during, and after foster care. Sketch those numbers.
Brian Mavis (19:17.155)
Yeah.
Brian Mavis (19:22.892)
Yeah, and so yeah, so we already touched upon this, but reinforce that most kids go into care and that’s your been yours and I’s experience. But just when it comes to statistical data, it is a major driver, if not the major driver of why kids go into care. so anywhere from, know, you’d see stats like 40 % go into care, 80 % go into care, whatever the number is, it’s a major, major, if not the major factor of why.
So that’s before, but while in care, was, found statistics that said anywhere from like 34 to 45 % of youth in care report that they have used drugs. And then after care, around 40 to 50 % said they’re not just using drugs, they’re addicted. And so the risk doesn’t end at 18, it spikes.
Courtney (20:23.413)
Yeah. And those numbers, to see the in-care number versus after care and how that grows, not only the number grows, but also the amount of addiction or addicted being.
Brian Mavis (20:30.432)
It does.
Brian Mavis (20:36.814)
Yeah, the more are using and more and it’s getting worse. It’s getting deeper. And so again, what I need to repeat over and over again, the problem wasn’t foster care. was what led them into foster care in the first place. They are going to go to what they know and it’s a bad solution to the pain that they’re trying to push them. And so with
more and better families, you can help alleviate that risk.
Courtney (21:12.001)
Yeah. So what are the two biggest factors?
Brian Mavis (21:16.192)
Well, the main one really is and I feel like we’re just repeating over and over again. So this ought to really drum it in. What’s the big risk factor? Their parents own drug use their addiction and it just like why are kids in foster care so much more likely to use? Because their parents did and used and abused. And then secondly, we’ve said it already, trauma. are now they seen it and
they may be encouraged to use it, and now they’re using it to self-medicate essentially. And so it’s those two factors that make kids in foster care so much more vulnerable to addiction than the general population.
Courtney (22:03.479)
You guys talk a lot about kids, teenagers, but also thinking about the babies, the infants that come into care and you devote space in your book to NAS, neonatal abstinence syndrome. What is that? Why does it matter? How does it relate to this?
Brian Mavis (22:15.468)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, NAS, neonatal abstinence syndrome. It’s like abstinence from what? It’s like, well, they’re abstaining from drugs, these babies. They were born addicts. this is the world my wife and I started foster care in. It’s the one my daughter did as well. And you got to get the book for just this section where she posts something about this on social media and then gets this huge response.
And so I put in the book all the responses that people had to their experience of kids born addicted to drugs. And so it’s a big, big deal. Thousands and thousands of kids are born every year. And then when they’re born, then they’re having to be weaned off of being addicted to whatever drug they’re on. And it’s usually a cocktail. It’s not just like
it was this thing. It’s like, well, turns out it was lots of things. was was marijuana and it was cocaine and it was heroin and it’s just awful. And these kids have tremors. They have trouble eating. It rewires their brains and nervous system. But the like the best healing thing that can happen during that time is to have
a human connection to have these have adults, moms and dads come in and hold these babies. It’s heartbreaking, but hold them through their shakes, hold them through this fragility and just, you know, pray for them, sing to them. And so much healing can happen through that. What I unfortunately have seen
Brian Mavis (24:15.606)
lately. And again, this is a condemnation on where foster care is going right now. In order to keep numbers down of like intakes, I know of a real example of a baby not being entered into officially into care who was born addicted until they were released from the hospital. So this baby for a month was never visited by anybody.
Courtney (24:29.175)
I know with real attention of a baby not being entered into official care through a sperm-advanced treatment, until they were released from hospital, so the baby’s going to be coma. It’s never going be in a coma. And so that is something that’s happening more and more, and it needs to stop and come around.
Brian Mavis (24:46.4)
And so that is something that’s happening more and more and it needs to stop and be turned around. And we need more and more families to say, we will care for babies who are born addicted to these drugs.
Courtney (25:06.304)
It’s a soapbox. We don’t have time to get on today, but it’s just one of my things. You know, have these foster families who are like, I don’t want to do teens. I just want to do babies. And then, I’ll do babies, but not of this and not of that. It’s like, that’s not foster care.
Brian Mavis (25:09.59)
Yeah
Brian Mavis (25:16.526)
Right? Why do you think a baby, right? I want a baby that is loved, it has no, no, bad going on in its life. It’s like, yeah, the kids, babies that go in care, it’s, it’s, they’re off to a hard, hard, hard start. Yeah. But again, I’m convinced that those early days, weeks, months of
Just constant care and love and touch can have almost just better healing properties than any kind of antidote medicine.
Courtney (26:02.583)
Sure. Okay, switching gears back to the teens a little bit here, we have these youth. As you mentioned, a lot of them come into care addicted to substances or become addicted. What can a foster family do if they’ve got a teen or youth in their care like that?
Brian Mavis (26:06.647)
Yeah.
Brian Mavis (26:18.924)
Yeah, so first of all, I would just say just kind of again have some some trauma training. Sensitivity awareness you just get get some of those learnings and tools in your parenting technique. So TBRI I saw a license plate the other day. It said TBRI and it was like hey, I know what that is. And in case you’re listening and you don’t know.
Courtney (26:43.285)
No.
Brian Mavis (26:48.416)
It’s called trust-based relational intervention. And it’s, you know, there’s a lot to learn, but if I could just put it in a phrase, it’s connect before you correct. It’s, and so pour your energy into connecting with the kid. would say secondly, create predictable rhythms. So sleep, meals, movement, it’s just those basic things. Gosh, it’s amazing.
Courtney (27:13.296)
Yeah.
Brian Mavis (27:16.93)
You know, you make fun of those Snickers commercials when you get hangry. You aren’t you when you are hungry. I mean, it’s true. Food. Feed them. Let them make sure they get enough sleep. Yeah, so yeah, they move their bodies around. it’s stuff like that. It’s just having teaching them their own.
Courtney (27:21.303)
For everybody, yeah.
Courtney (27:31.469)
Shut the door off at night so they will sleep.
Brian Mavis (27:43.471)
some own coping skills as simple as just naming triggers and naming feelings so that they can categorize it and have a sense of like, I don’t know what’s going on with me. It’s like, well, name it. And then just create belonging connections. have kids in these situations, they find.
other kids that are in the same boat and you’ve got to intervene and help them find healthy peers, healthy mentors, just healthy community space to have them see what friendships and community can look like without substance abuses. And then I would say speaking to their lives that I’m a big believer in just
you know, speaking kind of blessing into them of like, you are more than your history, that your future hope can be more powerful than your memories. And so just keep speaking that into their lives.
Courtney (29:00.715)
Hmm, that’s good. And what about for those that are listening who are not foster parents?
Brian Mavis (29:08.182)
Yeah, I would say for these kids, mean, first of all, again, be the village in general, but also things you could do or maybe like help fund some counseling, help fund athletics. I, you know, I’ve seen studies that say, you know, kids who are in sports or extracurricular activities like drama or music, those kinds of things.
are far less likely to get into drug use and abuse. And so if you can either fund that or you can help direct a kid to that, or if you’re leading something like that, look for those kids and invite them into it. When you see a kid, like, hey, it looks like actually, you look athletically built or have you ever tried drama out before? I think you would like that. So.
Courtney (29:55.691)
Hmm.
Brian Mavis (30:05.302)
invite them into those extracurricular activities.
Courtney (30:08.553)
Yeah, yeah, like you mentioned, that just gives them a different out, right? A different solution. So that might be the solution to get them out of this addiction is something that gives them some worth or.
Brian Mavis (30:16.426)
It does. And it gives them identity. It gives them a connection to other kids that aren’t into drugs. And again, connection is, man, it’s such a key word there. was, you know, that, that is just, it’s key. So let me just put it that way.
Courtney (30:35.969)
Hmm. Yeah. Okay, Brian, how would you lead us out of this topic of addiction?
Brian Mavis (30:43.303)
Well, I just kind of said it. It would be the opposite of addiction isn’t sobriety. That’s what we think it is. It’s connection. Addiction is one side, connection is the other. And kids who are well connected, hardly are addicted.
Courtney (30:58.903)
Yeah.
Okay, we’ve chatted about sex trafficking, addiction. Last one for today, at least, is the sixth one, poverty. Let’s chat about poverty and how you kicked off this chapter. says, Chad says, I don’t know how to do life. What does that sentence capture? Where does that come from?
Brian Mavis (31:10.827)
Yes.
Brian Mavis (31:20.864)
Yeah, Chad in foster care is now an adult and is living in a trailer home and out by himself, not among a trailer park, just out on his own, boarded up and is…
at times had some decent jobs or well paying in the construction side, but basically what summed it up, is that his perpetual problem is, is I don’t know how to do life. And so that really showed me that, okay, yes, kids who have been in foster care are far more likely to live in poverty than their peers, but it’s not just
financial poverty, though that’s what this chapter is about, it’s relational poverty. And that not knowing how to do life, it wasn’t just that had a low income, he had no coach in life, no playbook, no margin in case something went wrong. He just didn’t know how to play the game of how to not be desperately poor.
Courtney (32:41.143)
Hmm.
Yes, you mentioned there’s there’s an economic gap there. What is that economic gap with fostering?
Brian Mavis (32:48.142)
Yeah, so by the mid 20s, former foster youth are earning just a fraction of what their peers are. And so most of them make under $25,000 a year. And where I live, you can’t even rent a one bedroom apartment if that’s how much you’re making. so, in addition to being paid lower than their peers,
They also tend to be unemployed more than their peers. So one third of former foster youth are living below the poverty line. And the more placements that they’ve had during foster care, their outcomes get worse and worse. They’re more likely they are to have a low income.
Courtney (33:44.919)
And I’ve got to believe that aging out versus just being a foster alumni is going to be another big gap, you know, if they age out of care without relationship, mentorship.
Brian Mavis (33:54.987)
it’s huge. Yes. Yes. For sure. Again, that’s that’s that part of that relational poverty. That’s going to be the key. If if you have relationships, the healthy relationships, you’re probably not going to live in poverty.
Courtney (34:14.529)
So talking about poverty, is this just a result of not finishing school, not going on to college, or what is this all about?
Brian Mavis (34:20.288)
Right. So, I mean, that definitely has an impact if you haven’t finished school, but there are, you know, found that there were kids who did finish school who were still in poverty. But so, you know, there are a big factor though is that if kids have multiple placements, it doesn’t mean that they just had multiple homes. It meant they had probably multiple schools and every move.
results in a huge gap in learning. And because they’re just trying to reorient who’s safe, how do I get out of here without getting in trouble or beat up or whatever. They’re not really learning much. And so every home move is another academic setback. And then there’s barriers beyond high school. But even when they do graduate, they just don’t have
Courtney (34:51.788)
Yeah.
Brian Mavis (35:16.504)
connections to take the next steps. I mean, it’s very rare for youth to, especially those who’ve aged out without being connected to the family, very rare for them to go on to a four year school. And then, but still rare even to go on to a two year school or a vocational school. They end up doing some, if they’re employed, hopefully they are, it’s still work that will keep them poor.
Courtney (35:48.001)
So what have you found in your research? What interrupts that? The poverty current, the cycle.
Brian Mavis (35:48.974)
Thanks.
Brian Mavis (35:52.983)
Yeah, so, you know, it’s the opposite of what I just said. First of all, stability. There is fewer placement moves, which allows for better educational continuity. And so that’s, again, one of the important reasons that families are being supported by people who aren’t fostering is so that that family can keep saying yes to that child, so that child can keep.
having the same kind of educational experience. That continuity is profoundly important. And then again, this has to do with relationships. But if you have the right relationships, then you can build into them life skills, learning how to budget and time management, just those kinds of things that just you don’t even think about much how they make a difference when it comes to.
showing work on time and showing up day after day and about transportation. A lot of these kids age out, they don’t have a driver’s license. No one ever taught them to drive. And so then they’re limited by where they can work because they’re relying on a bus system. And so if you can teach them to drive, that’s a big one. And then giving them education.
giving them employment on ramps. again, most kids in intact families, they are working when they’re in high school. have a job after school, they have a job on the weekends. And so giving these kids job opportunities as teenagers so that they start learning that earlier in life of what it looks like to be a
you know, employed and learning these skills and then, social capital back to relationships again, just, we take for granted, many of us who are relationally well connected, on how much of a difference that makes. I’ve, I don’t know that I’ve ever gotten a job through a resume before, you know, it’s just because I know people and they know me.
Courtney (37:48.428)
you
Brian Mavis (38:15.35)
And so helping kids get relationally connected through mentors and employer introductions and references, that is maybe the most important one of all.
Courtney (38:32.405)
Yeah, I kind of feel like from the start of today, these topics to where we are, heard you say a lot today, continuity and connection. Like those two things are in all these topics, probably all the social wounds. Yeah. Okay, so foster parents got a kid in their care who comes from poverty, kind of looks like that might be their route. What can we do tangibly to make a difference?
Brian Mavis (38:43.438)
Great summary, yes.
Brian Mavis (38:56.012)
Yeah. So I would say, you know, when it gets hard, you know, just get better. And so that the kid doesn’t have to move, prioritize stability. You just said, can you know, continuity, prioritize school stability, help them get a job, learn to drive, teach, you know, have them get a driver’s license and, and then help them learn about saving money and budgeting.
Some of these kids are like soon as they get a dollar in their pocket and it’s not just them, but it’s kind of what they saw in their lives. just, they don’t know that saving is even a thing. So teach them how to budget and save money. Just those real practical life skills.
Courtney (39:39.873)
Yeah.
Courtney (39:45.919)
Yeah. I do also have to say we interviewed one of our episodes, Miss Kentucky. She was a former foster youth and she’s got this foundation called the Lucky Ones. And one of the things that her foundation does is she’s got a whole online series called Life Skills. And it’s for foster youth who are in foster care or who have aged out that just need help in this area. So if people are listening and they know foster youth, it might be a great way to point them to some of them as well, because she goes through all the things that she was really struggling with.
Brian Mavis (39:53.174)
Yeah. Yep.
Brian Mavis (40:02.606)
Hmm.
Courtney (40:14.347)
I like, people never taught me these things. I mean, most importantly, have somebody do it for, know, come alongside them. But this class sounds like a great thing that she’s got for free online too, specifically for foster youth.
Brian Mavis (40:23.873)
Great. So they would just, how do they find that? Okay, they’ll just search that. Okay, they’ll look at once, all right.
Courtney (40:26.847)
It’s called the lucky ones is the foundation. So if you search the lucky ones, yep. And really her thing is she interviews and talks to people who are the lucky ones who came from foster care and are doing well. But she talks about why. Why are they doing well? it’s all these things that we’re talking about. So that’s her hope is that they all become the lucky ones to come out on top.
Brian Mavis (40:41.324)
Yeah, yeah.
Brian Mavis (40:46.228)
Mm-hmm, like that.
Courtney (40:47.873)
Okay, so also churches, businesses, neighbors, what can other people do if they’re not fostering?
Brian Mavis (40:51.65)
Yeah, so I mean, look, you know, if you have, you know, do paid internships or, know, be the employer. Just help out how, you know, again, churches have opportunities for internships and some people in businesses look for those opportunities to employ kids that have been care.
trade scholarships, if you have any connections there or have funds where you could say, hey, I would love for you to pursue your dream of going into trade school. Unfortunately, I’m so glad to see that is kind of getting a revival now lately of like, hey, as four year schools are becoming more out of reach for everybody financially, and maybe you were even wondering about some of the majors of how practical they are.
that are like trade schools are seeing a revival. So, but provide scholarships for that or talk to a trade school, see if they’ll offer discounts. Provide reliable vehicles. So, you know, if the kid learns to drive, well, then they still need a vehicle to get to work. And so whether you have one that…
They buy from you at a really great price or you just loan them one until they can earn the money and just get creative and think about that. And then another thing, just to encourage good behavior, incentivize the right kinds of things. Maybe have a savings match program of saying, hey, if you save this much, then I’ll match it 10%, 20%, whatever it is. So they get a sense of being incentivized to do the right
good things that help them.
Courtney (42:41.839)
I love it. We have this special young man. was in our house for a while. Our county was looking for a home for him, about to age out, 17, almost 18. Couldn’t find a home. They reached out to our neighboring community of a former kinship placement and said, hey, this young man loves doing mechanic work. You’re a mechanic. He moved over there at the beginning of the school year and he is just doing so well.
Brian Mavis (42:59.586)
Hmm.
Courtney (43:05.271)
He’s able to go and mentor under the sky in the evenings and then he’s at home with them, but just finding value and worth in having a job that he loves and connection. So that now when he does age out, hopefully he’s got that. And I think he’s going to go into mechanics, which is pretty cool. yeah. Okay, Brian, what’s the one thing if we remember one sentence about this poverty, what should we remember?
Brian Mavis (43:05.358)
Great.
Brian Mavis (43:09.974)
Yeah.
Brian Mavis (43:16.43)
Totally. Fantastic, yeah.
Brian Mavis (43:26.23)
Yeah, when it comes to poverty, we always think about it as being money. But I would say my one liner is funds matter, family matters more. And so if you if you have family, then the funds will come because they’ll do the things that teach you how to be a producer and not a taker.
Courtney (43:53.687)
And sometimes that family comes later in life, sometimes even after they’ve aged out. And I think that’s one thing we need to remember. Like that family doesn’t need to mean at 10 or 12, it might mean at 22, taking somebody under your wing and making them part of your family.
Brian Mavis (43:59.737)
Totally. Yeah.
Brian Mavis (44:06.572)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Courtney (44:10.007)
So thanks, Brian. Again, not easy topics, but things that we need to be talking about, things that are important and that tangibly, things we can do and how this relates so much to foster care and the realm of foster care and going upstream so that we can stop some of these things and make a change in the outcomes of these kids and youth. What’s coming up next? What are the last few social wounds?
Brian Mavis (44:33.196)
Yeah, we’re going to, we’re going to take on four wounds this time. So we did one through three, four through six, and now we’re going to do next time seven through 10. that’s homelessness, incarceration, teen pregnancy, and generational foster care and showing how each of those wounds foster kids who’ve been in foster care are far more likely to experience those wounds and why it matters to go upstream. So that
they hopefully won’t experience them.
Courtney (45:07.607)
Thanks again, as always, Brian. Again, if you haven’t listened, go back and listen to the launch of our Go Up stream. Talks about the overview of his book and then listen to the podcast episode 64 of the one through three and join us as we continue this conversation. Have a great day.
Brian Mavis (45:24.899)
Thanks, Cort.
