Episode 51 – From Meth to Social Worker, a Powerful Reunification Story with Brenna Hunter

TRANSCRIPT:

Travis (00:02.573)
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Foster Friendly podcast. I’m your host, Travis Vongness, joined by my cohost Courtney Williams. Really excited today to talk more about reunification. We have a mom on today who did have her kids removed and she’s going to share about her story and the powerful journey and all the lessons and some of the insights gained from that and kind of where things are today with her. So our guest today is Brenna Hunter. Welcome to the podcast, Brenna.

Brenna Hunter (00:30.678)
you.

Travis (00:31.961)
Brenna is a former addict turned social worker. She lives in Michigan with her three children who were removed from her care in 2020. She uses her story to educate people about the best practices when removal is necessary. So yeah, anything else you want to share about your family or living in Michigan with the kids, we’ll have to hear little bit more about you guys.

Brenna Hunter (00:53.551)
my God, a six year old, five year old and four year old. So we’re pretty busy. I work full time.

Courtney (00:57.832)
you

Travis (01:04.119)
That’s great, that’s fine. You can imagine it full time with those ones, so yeah.

Brenna Hunter (01:09.484)
Pretty much life day to day is spent pretty routine every single day.

Courtney (01:12.582)
Yeah, Jason. Yeah. Well, I got to know Brenna a little bit last summer as we were doing some webinars and one of them was on bio-family relationships. And she just shared her journey and shared how to best support biological parents through the journey of reunification or not, but just really

Travis (01:15.427)
Yep, I hear ya.

Courtney (01:33.132)
having that relationship with them through foster care and loved getting to know her. So Brenna, share with our listeners a little bit more about your story and walk us through your journey as a mom, having your kids removed.

Brenna Hunter (01:45.484)
Um, yeah, so to preface, I grew up in a very conservative household, um, homeschooled, pretty firmly, it’s sort of socialization throughout my life was church on Sunday. So by the time I reached adulthood, I wasn’t really, I was pretty sheltered, like not familiar with the world. So when I was first introduced to meth by my older two children’s father, I didn’t question it too much. I remember being a nurse cause like I genuinely didn’t know what a drug was, but he was like, no, it’s fine. I could make.

it doesn’t make you feel different. And he was right. It made me feel a lot more.

like my brain could actually think for the first time in my life, like come to find out later, I was undiagnosed ADHD my whole life. so meth chemically is very similar to, it’s a stimulant. So it’s similar chemical compound to Adderall. So the way it impacted my brain made me feel a lot like I could focus and my brain felt quiet for the first time. So that’s initially what got me hooked on the substance.

Travis (02:39.385)
Mmm.

Brenna Hunter (02:53.26)
didn’t have a whole lot of support or family involvement throughout my pregnancy and the birth of my first daughter. So I didn’t, I continued to use during that pregnancy when she was born, she was then born substance positive, which involved, is what opened up our first CPS case. The…

It didn’t stay open for that long because we were pretty much, we lived in a small county at that point. So was able to get clean for drug tests. And after they got three months of clean screens, they just closed out the case. Around that same time is when I conceived my second child, son, continued to use them during his pregnancy. And when he was born, another case opened up and this one stayed open for the long haul.

They threatened removal at the hospital, ultimately didn’t do so. And so my CPS case at that point was open for about seven months by the time removal occurred. When they were removed, I was in Los Angeles. Didn’t really have anywhere to go and they flew, I’m from Michigan as you said earlier. So like they flew my kids back to Michigan. It was, they removed March 9, 2020. That rings a bell.

Well, the COVID lockdowns happened within a week of that point. So was a very, I feel like, point to be entering the system in that way. And now being separated from my kids in that way, I didn’t have a means to get back to Michigan right away where they were flown back to because the planes were shut down for a few weeks there. Amtrak was shut down for a few weeks there. So I pretty much just stayed on the streets. I didn’t have…

Travis (04:17.55)
Mm-hmm.

Travis (04:23.938)
Wow, yeah.

Courtney (04:44.342)
Hmm.

Brenna Hunter (04:45.096)
any money, anywhere to go. So there was a unique point during my CPS case where I got clean from January through March when after removal occurred, then I relapsed. But it was almost in a different way. Like I feel like I was self-medicating a lot of that time before. Like I think my use got a lot heavier with the pressure of CPS case. But this time it was like almost a survival method because the narrowest aspect of meth is like

It makes you alert so like stay awake and this presses your appetite. So during that month that I was on the streets, I counted it out. Then I got like 12 hours of sleep and six meals. And so that’s how I basically relied on the drug to get through that. Eventually, I just started reaching out to anybody I’ve known in my life. And I was able to get a hold of co-worker who agreed to pay for my flight back to Michigan. And so April,

Travis (05:27.897)
Hmm.

Brenna Hunter (05:42.38)
4 of 2020, was, I don’t know what happened. Did it freeze for you? Okay, sorry. Something happened on my end. No. April 4 of 2020, was then, I flew back to Michigan. And by the end of that week, I entered self-admitted into rehab. I was there for a week while I detoxed. And then from there that led

Travis (05:50.265)
Nope. It’s okay. It can do that sometimes. You’re good.

Brenna Hunter (06:11.338)
to my ability to enter a halfway house, which the state would fund for the first six weeks. Then after that, there’s a very low payment that the person is responsible for weekly. A week into my stay at the halfway house, I was able to get a job at a pizza shop I had worked at years prior. And that was basically how I got my foot going when it came to my foster care case.

Also note during this time, because it was COVID lockdown, even though I was back in Michigan, I didn’t get to visit my children in person because they have no in-person visitations. I was able to get some virtual visits, but at this point my children were about a year and a half and seven months old. So yeah, I was grateful to see their faces, but it wasn’t the same sort of bonding as you experience with an in-person visitation. July of that year is when they finally began.

the in-person visitation again. And it’s fun because I have a video of it and it was cute. My older daughter, the one and a half year old, she recognized me right away and smiled. But I remember feeling crushed because my son who was now about nine months old, 10 months old, it was like you’re handing your baby to a stranger. He had a lot of stranger danger, which fell mentally on track for a nine month old, but broke my heart a little bit because I was very bonded to him prior to that point.

Courtney (07:35.095)
Hmm.

Brenna Hunter (07:39.828)
And then I just continued to work my case from there throughout the case. I had three different case managers. One was for the first three months of the case. Another one carried the bulk of the case about seven months. And then he left and another one closed out my case. My children were turned and they start transitioning in May of 2021 and were fully returned in June. And then the case itself closed out in

September of 2021. don’t if they do this everywhere in the country, but where I’m located, they will keep the case after return home. They keep it open for a few months to make sure no issues arise. Everything is still on track. Throughout my case, there was a lot of expectations. I had to do weekly drug screens. And again, coming as somebody who was rebuilding our life, literally from zero with nothing, meant a lot of, I’d be very creative in my

means of getting to these drug screens with the added effect of COVID. I just think that added a very unique factor during that period of time because even like public transportation, things like that weren’t quite as easily and readily accessible. Even though buses were up and running again, think wait times were likely a lot longer because they weren’t running as frequently as they do typically. I had to complete a psych eval.

I had to do a parenting class. Those were probably the biggest three highlights of the services. I had to be in therapy and still in therapy. I’ve remained in the same program for that since my case, which I think everybody should be who experiences the system. Yeah. So that’s just me summing everything up in a little bubble.

Travis (09:18.553)
Hmm.

Travis (09:26.873)
Mm-hmm.

Travis (09:33.203)
That was great. Good summary.

Courtney (09:34.766)
Yeah, it was. Thanks for sharing. And I know it’s probably not easy to talk about even years later, know, just reliving those moments. And like you talked about your son, you know, not recognizing you or knowing you as mom. And yeah, it’s just heartbreaking. But we appreciate you being willing to openly share with us so that people can understand that this is real life for a lot of people. And we want to verbalize kind of those feelings and those thoughts and also normalize that

Brenna Hunter (09:53.654)
Thank you. Thank you.

Courtney (10:05.004)
these feelings of parents and why we should come alongside you guys so well. So we’re going to dive into some more things about reunification and why it’s so important.

Brenna Hunter (10:12.296)
one thing I forgot to mention was so during the beginning of my case, once I was back in Michigan is when I conceived my last child, my daughter. she was born in January of 2021, but I was sober for her entire pregnancy. So once she was born, I didn’t know if she would come home from the hospital with me or enter care. Like literally the entire pregnancy, I had that added stressor, not knowing I wouldn’t get that answer until she was born. but because I was sober and had

obtained housing by the time she was born. I was working, I was like well on track for reunification. Then CPS made the call to let me take her home, which I feel like was so good for me and her long-term. Like now she’s my little roadie, we’re besties. Like we’re so bonded. I can’t imagine how that would differ. Like, you know, it’s normal, like what you want for a parent, like that would have been so different had.

they were moved at birth and I didn’t get that chance to bond. So she was pretty much home alone with me and without the other siblings for five months before the other two came home, which also I ended up making our reunification unique because by the time the other two were coming home, they were almost three years old and almost two years old, which again, for my daughter who had the previous, like it felt like that bond wasn’t quite as severed. Like it was as minimal as could be for a young child like that.

that feel like her transition went well, but for my son, he was at the stage where they can say some words, but struggled to put a sentence together, struggled to communicate. And so as me, who hadn’t been their caregiver for his bulk of his life now, I remember he would just get so frustrated trying to tell me what he wanted and what his needs were. But if I didn’t guess it correctly within two tries, he would just completely melt down. So I ended up relying on

Travis (12:07.405)
Hmm.

Brenna Hunter (12:09.516)
the almost three year old help translates to minimize some of these meltdowns, which isn’t ideal, but that’s what it was like during our transition months home, just getting to re-know each other again. Cause it was not, I feel like once they start the transition home, that’s when I started getting increasingly a lot more time with them. It was probably up to four hours of visits a week until May. And, but once May hit.

Courtney (12:13.134)
Hmm.

Travis (12:13.388)
haha

Brenna Hunter (12:38.59)
it started being like eight hour visits, overnights, et cetera. And so it was just very zero to nothing, which I was grateful for, but it was also just very much, whoa, like, I’m so happy they’re coming back finally, but it’s a big adjustment.

Travis (12:54.371)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney (12:54.638)
Let’s camp on this just for a moment Brenna, because this is one thing that’s really hard for foster families I feel like is, you know, whether it’s reunification or sometimes, you know, there cases that where a kiddo might be in a foster home for two years and then a family member across the United States they’ve never met, you know, they end up going there and foster families have a really hard time. And I get it. I do. Like it’s emotional. It’s hard. You’re like as a foster family, you can get bonded to these kids pretty, you know, but like you’re

describing the opposite side of that of now being reunified or again, like if it was a family member, kinship member now getting these kiddos. And oftentimes these foster families will say, but it’s gonna be so hard on those kids. They’re not gonna bond to those people. And so you’re describing like, it’s hard, but it did happen, right? Like you guys got to that point. Like how long, can you kind of talk about that a little bit? Cause I feel like this is something that’s so hard for foster families to really get around if I’m making sense of.

Travis (13:47.352)
Mm-hmm.

Brenna Hunter (13:47.946)
like this change of bond again, essentially. Right.

Courtney (13:50.55)
Yeah, back to you or to another family member, like why that’s so important. Kind of what, like how long did that take before it was like, hey, they feel like, they feel this is mom.

Travis (13:50.743)
Hmm.

Brenna Hunter (14:02.643)
Right. Like I said, I feel like because we did have those visits, like by the time he came home, I speak mostly of my son because that’s where it was a lot different. Like that’s where I felt that disconnect a whole lot more, had to be a lot more intentional. So we had a bond when he came home. I feel like it was a very different bond than mother, child. Like it’s a closest that I could relate to what it feel like to adopt a child just because it almost didn’t feel like the same child I gave birth to. Like I just remember I look at

Travis (14:14.105)
Mm-hmm.

Brenna Hunter (14:31.936)
these pictures of my baby, zero to six months. And I just remember how close I felt to him. Like I was their primary caregiver. was with, which can be conflicting emotions, you know, cause I was using substances during that time, but I was with him 24 seven. So when he came home, it was like, I knew this was my child, but I feel like my child. And so I just had to put in a lot of intentional effort into rebuilding a bond and

Travis (14:41.753)
Hmm.

Travis (14:55.683)
Mm-hmm.

Brenna Hunter (15:01.384)
Over time, I feel like it took a good year before that’s the first time he fell asleep on my chest again. And maybe flashback to little infant that I had. And I was like, you aren’t my baby. And so still in my head, now I have to be intentional about things, as crappy as that sounds. But I feel like it’s just going to be a work in progress forever. Now I’m the only person he remembers as mom, physically.

Travis (15:11.043)
Mm-hmm.

Travis (15:21.549)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney (15:26.168)
Yeah.

Brenna Hunter (15:30.676)
remembers, like my daughter remembers staying with the caregiver, but he again was so young that he doesn’t have any memories that he’s ever articulated. So I’d say he’s very, it’s almost like at this point, he’s way more bonded to me as mom and that came a lot quicker and more natural for him than it did for me as my son. Does that make sense?

Courtney (15:51.15)
It does, yeah. Yeah, thanks for sharing.

Travis (15:52.825)
Mm-hmm.

Travis (15:57.015)
Yeah, I appreciate you just being so real too and vulnerable. And really, I think for the listener that hears this and is kind of wondering and imagining, know, mean, every story is different and you know, every experience is different, but that commonality that you’re kind of talking about with just what, some of these things are like to, to try to re bond, to try to feel these feelings that, know, you were separated, you know, and that’s a reality. And I think there’s something to it, just the familiarity that everyone has lost.

Brenna Hunter (16:10.924)
Thank

Travis (16:26.925)
And I think we all gravitate to familiarity, even if it’s someone that’s not our mom. And so almost to go back to kind of regaining that trust and familiarity, it is a process and really love how you articulated that. So as we kind of move forward, we’ve talked about this in previous episodes, but reunification is the primary goal of foster care. so can you give some advice to foster families

Brenna Hunter (16:36.832)
Mm-hmm.

Travis (16:54.502)
you know, from just your experience and observations of how they best can support biofamilies.

Brenna Hunter (17:00.222)
Yeah, so the placement my children had, they like did have a consistent place. I’ve never had concerns that they weren’t safe or loved or cared for, but it was not a supportive placement. was a kinship placement, just very messy. I won’t go into more detail, but it was almost like every, if I reflect on my experience, anything of the opposite would be what is supportive. Like I feel like in that, those transition moments,

months and even like in my work now, I’ve seen a lot, not a lot, but I’ve seen some foster parents, like they just go digging for information to try to make things, like prevent, like I understand like the genuine concern they may have about the safety, but I’ve never seen at where I specifically work, I can’t speak to everyone, but we’ve never gone to return the child home knowing, like we always have felt good about and done it with all of the attorney’s support in mind.

in the family in mind. So I feel like if the transition is already hard enough that having too many voices in the pot speaking to, they didn’t buckle the car seats the way the show was down here, things like, know, nitty gritty stuff like that. I those could cut those concerns. I think it could come out with a lot more supportive. Like instead of complaining to the case manager about the car seat problem you witnessed, you could show the parent like in the moment be like,

Hey, like, you know, correct that type of thing. The more binary, like, yes, we want these children buckled up safely. That’s just one example. But like, I feel like those hands-on things are stuff that could be done in a more supportive way instead of us niche way. ultimately, if we just get a lot of reports and reports ends up delaying case closure, which can be frustrating for everybody involved. And I don’t, does that make any sense?

Travis (18:56.121)
it makes a ton of sense because like you’re kind of saying it can be adversarial and I gotcha versus I want to teach you and because I care and I want what’s, really what’s best for the child, right. And you, but that’s a big difference.

Courtney (19:12.534)
Hmm.

Brenna Hunter (19:12.556)
And I’ve also have seen a lot of parents who would be open to maintain a relationship afterwards. But I feel like most parents will not take the lead in that. Like I feel like a lot of parents exit the system in need of that support. So if the foster parent has an interest in that, know, continuing the relationship with the child like genuinely, I feel like during that transition is like the prime time to continue to build your relationship with that parent and be there. Like you don’t have to be.

And a lot of parents might be like scared of enabling. You don’t have to give be financially means supporting this family, even just like being a friendly face during these drop offs or give exchange in an email or phone number. feel like can go a long way to show that interest or like when it’s coming to the close, if you were able to build that relationship, like offering that if you ever need babysitter, like feel free to call, you know what mean? Cause we’re not, the parents aren’t gonna think that.

you’re willing if you don’t put it out there. You know what mean? Does that make sense? And maybe not every parent will be interested, but I know I’ve seen a few who would have been. Or I’ve even seen ones where we as the agency went to the event guests. these people, like it was such a adversarial experience between the caregiver and parent, but then the case closed and we hear months later from the parents that.

Courtney (20:12.618)
Mm-hmm.

Brenna Hunter (20:35.884)
They’re going to the zoo together and having all these experiences. that ideally, that’s what we would hope for and wish when it’s safe and possible.

Courtney (20:45.654)
Yeah, it’s and not in a selfish sense, but as a foster parent, I know that like I have, you know, every single kid that leaves my home, I write them a letter. I write their birth mom, usually it’s the mom, but not always mom or dad or both a letter and explain to them like, hey, we want to be here to support you if you need any help, know, yada yada yada. And not very many take me up on it, but it is such a blessing for those few that have because I get to know and there’s other kids like I don’t have any clue what they’re up to today and where they are today.

Brenna Hunter (21:03.7)
Okay.

Right.

Courtney (21:15.256)
But if you don’t take that step to do that, you know, again, like you might not know, because I don’t a lot of them, but that might be the step of you getting to be part of this child’s life, this youth’s life for years to come. And I’ve had youth, you know, that have reached out to me years after they’ve been in my care. And it’s just a beautiful thing when we really get to be part of a team and feel that and not feel like it’s these foster parents versus the bio parents. It’s really, we’re united and I want the parents to feel like we’re part of them and we’re not going to sit here and judge them. Yes, there might have been some wrong choices, but.

Brenna Hunter (21:26.124)
Mm-hmm.

Brenna Hunter (21:37.526)
Exactly.

Courtney (21:45.13)
Usually it’s rooted in other things, not in a love for a child, you know.

Travis (21:49.603)
Mm-hmm.

Brenna Hunter (21:49.899)
Exactly, like that’s in my work. One of the biggest things I tried to do is like not just judge them based on what the petition I’m reading. Because I feel like the ones that let me into their story and I hear what led to that makes it makes so much sense. It doesn’t mean it’s not heartbreaking, whatever ultimately happened that led to this, but it’s been the easiest way for me to support the parent and moving on. I’ve seen parents who like

so many people would have never seen that child go home and then the child ended up going home. And I’m not saying I’m the reason I’m saying being able to have a door of empathy and not just judging them based on paper. Because even me, like I look horrible on paper. it’s only like people have now heard my story. And so like they will look at me and give me a chance. But that’s only because I’ve been you know, I mean, like I just feel like if everybody knew the

Travis (22:31.961)
Hmm.

Travis (22:43.854)
Mm-hmm.

Brenna Hunter (22:46.634)
back story, not that you get to, I just am very passionate about not judging the parent solely based on the current circumstances. And to what you were saying, yeah, a lot of them probably don’t take you up on it. And you never hear from them again. like, I feel like that’s not horrible either way, because either you do get to continue that experience. But also, the longer you don’t hear from them means they’re okay, like they’re stable, because typically,

Travis (22:52.153)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brenna Hunter (23:16.12)
in my experience, prior placements, if there’s a re-removal, that’s one of the first people contacted with the option of taking the placement. So if you’re not getting calls that they’ve returned to care, rather than dwell in the uncertainty, I would just try and hope for the best that that means the family is stable and continuing to thrive. Does that make sense?

Travis (23:22.265)
Mm. Mm.

Travis (23:38.809)
Hmm.

Courtney (23:39.128)
That’s a great point, yeah, for sure. So you talked a little bit about the support system that you didn’t necessarily feel from the placement that your kiddos were in. Who were the people that were on your team that you did feel support from that helped you get back on your feet and get your kids back home to you?

Brenna Hunter (23:47.104)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brenna Hunter (23:57.706)
I feel like one of the biggest things for me specifically, which again might be unique, was just my employer at that pizza shop, because I had the previous relationship with them. It was a mom and pop type of shop, not a chain. And so they felt like the owners felt like parents to me. And it didn’t help me. They weren’t my people that would go to to vent about my case, but I never had to worry that my job was in jeopardy because they were so accommodating to all my appointments and visits. Because having a case always felt like a

full-time job, like the number of hours I had to put into it every week. So if I had to change my schedule last minute, they were always like very common. And so I feel like realistically on a day-to-day level, that was a huge support to me. And I’m still very close to them to this day. And other than that, I was able to build some relationships with a few foster parents local to the area. It was like very

This was very me going out of my way. But I remember at one point, it’s probably around the time that my daughter was born, I just felt like I wish I could meet an outparent in the system to be able to have somebody to understand that with. Because it was very hard for me as a new, like I remade my entire life. So very different social circles. And so I wanted like connection and support. But how do you get that A, during a pandemic, but B, like if you go to church then.

Travis (25:21.497)
Mm-hmm.

Brenna Hunter (25:25.741)
I don’t got my kids there with me. So how do it? It’s either I have to trauma dump on any new person I meet or withhold a huge part of my life and pretend I don’t, don’t know. It was very, just very awkward. I just remember thriving to have bonds and connection, but not knowing how to get it. And so at some point I found the foster community on Instagram and I found, I just started following people and that made me feel slightly.

Travis (25:28.141)
Hmm.

Brenna Hunter (25:53.42)
connected because I was like, okay, these people don’t know what it’s like to be me, but they’re at least involved in my world enough that maybe you less alone. And then I found one that was in my area. And so I messaged her and just built a friendship on that through that time. And so she became, she and her family became huge supports to me for the duration of my case after that. And so that was really cool.

Travis (26:01.538)
Hmm.

Courtney (26:20.866)
That’s beautiful. I love that. I kind of got a little chuckle when we did your bio because when we did your webinar, when we did interview for a webinar, you mentioned how you don’t like the term addict and kind of talked about that. share a little bit about that. that whole, because substance abuse is a huge reason why a lot of kids enter the foster care system. So talk kind of what you shared on that webinar about like, why don’t you like to use that term and what do you like to say instead?

Brenna Hunter (26:49.556)
I feel like using the word act just adds a lot of stigma to it. It doesn’t, when you think of an act, you think of somebody tweaked out or on the street or like panhandling to scam people for money. You know what mean? Like just the image that comes to mind isn’t positive and doesn’t really bring a lot of hope to it. Because realistically the diagnosis is a substance use disorder. And I feel like that puts it way more under perspective that something that can be healed.

Travis (26:53.069)
Mm-hmm.

Travis (27:03.779)
Mm-hmm.

Brenna Hunter (27:19.486)
It’s not always this, it might be something that somebody struggles with long term. But I feel like it doesn’t create the same identity. It’s like the person is suffering from this disorder versus this is the person’s identity. Does that make sense?

Travis (27:24.649)
huh.

Travis (27:34.253)
Right. 100%.

Courtney (27:36.014)
Totally, yeah. Yeah, and I know you share your timeline and it kind of gets to me a little bit because our two youngest came to us on March 12th of 2020, cut very similar situation. Their mom, bio mom ended up getting pregnant in the middle of the story. And so she, in a sense, let it go to TPR because she was fearful her next child would be taken away as well. so there’s a lot of similarities in the timeline of things.

Brenna Hunter (27:46.892)
All right.

Courtney (28:03.48)
But one thing she told me after TPR happened is we had just this great bonding moment and chatted for two hours outside of the office of her goodbye visit, which I think is just trash that they do that. But anyways, in Colorado, they do good by business like this is your last visit because you have no rights to your children after this. But we have a great relationship and I’ve kept her part of their story now. But we are standing outside and just chatting and crying together. And I kind of looked at her and she’s like, I am not going to appeal this. And I didn’t bring that up. I didn’t bring up appeal. Right. But she brought it up and was like,

Travis (28:14.967)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney (28:33.006)
Okay, like kind of uncomfortable that she was bringing this up. She goes I know that you love these kids and you’re gonna give them a great life and I also trust that you’re gonna let me be part of it and I’ve trusted you from day one and I was kind like you have because I had some judgmental things at the beginning I’m not gonna lie. I’ve loved her from the beginning, but there were some things that I was like, I’m not sure here and she’s like Courtney You looked me in the eyes You treated me like a human being and you always asked me questions like to make me feel like you wanted to know

Travis (28:48.953)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney (29:00.746)
my kids from my point of view, not just like your point of view. And I was like, my goodness. like, you never made me feel like I was just this addict. And that was the term that she used. So when you said that, I was like, wow, like that is so powerful to really know. Like she was saying that to you, like you weren’t treating me as an addict. You were treating me as a human being with a future and with a purpose. And now we just have this great relationship with each other. And I love that she’s part of our lives, but yeah, it just really spoke to me a lot when you shared that.

Travis (29:28.183)
Yeah. And I recently heard a therapist who was himself a former, I mean, using the word addict, but can’t, and he describes himself as that. you know, there’s different ways to, but a really powerful paradigm shift he said that I think also gives more compassion to it is that he describes addiction as the solution, not the problem, a misplaced solution. So, and in the previous episodes, we were talking to another mom who’d struggle with some substance abuse issues.

And I think back to that same point was all that had been going on in her life was so in upheaval and just all of the trauma and all that stuff around that, that the addiction was part of a wrong attempt at a solution, but that’s what it was trying to accomplish. then, yeah, and then realizing.

Brenna Hunter (30:12.33)
Exactly.

Brenna Hunter (30:17.74)
Yeah, I that. feel like that’s what I’ve seen in a lot of my clients and some of the other drug users that I’ve met back in the day. I feel like when you think of someone as just an addict, you’re thinking of they are like a partier in a sense. know what mean? But I feel like, but really I feel like most of them are just self-medicine for whatever it is. A lot of them have childhood trauma or unstable life services. It’s not that they’re not at fault for some of the time.

Travis (30:33.497)
The stereotypical.

Travis (30:46.285)
Right, absolutely.

Brenna Hunter (30:47.756)
But otherwise I’ll have time. can be generational. remember this one person who their parents were used to like by the time they were in their teens, they were using to just with their parents. it was just like, you know what I mean? Like it’s like, how can you hate or blame them for that? people, I don’t know. It’s just, I feel like you can’t, I don’t hate meeting somebody with substance use disorder. Like I can’t predict what their future is going to be, but unless we address the like,

pause, we can’t just magically expect them to be cured. So I feel like for me, it was getting my ADHD diagnosis to be properly medicated along with long-term therapy to work on the traumas. Does that make sense? Sorry, I keep saying that word.

Courtney (31:19.278)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Courtney (31:33.524)
Yeah. No, I love it. And so true. Yeah. it’s just, you know, those lens we walk around and you see people in the streets or you see people you meet and like that just we all, mean, naturally, symboly, we judge people. And I think we just need to be aware of it. Aware that the way that we perceive people is not what’s on the inside. Most always, you know, what we see on the outside.

Travis (31:58.189)
Yeah. And I mean, there’s tons of us walking around that are choosing other, lesser addiction things or lesser things that have as much dire consequences, but food or any, much of these other things are, you know, sort of in some ways the same attempt to fill a void or a helpless suffering. So yeah, that was a really good brand of just kind of how you articulated, having more compassion around the word addict and addiction. So kind of moving forward on as we bring this thing to the final stretch is.

Brennan, what are you up to these days and how has your journey with foster care system changed you?

Brenna Hunter (32:33.1)
So over the years, a lot of people have asked if I’m glad everything happened because now I’m in this great, like a hopeful future, like field of work. And I hate that question. It’s like, no, I’m not freaking glad it all happened, but I’ve just chosen to use, open every door, every door that’s opened since the closure of my case, I’ve just jumped at it. Like, cause by the end I had a big, and my case had a huge.

like passion on my heart that all of my case managers were these young kids fresh out of college who had no children of their own. And I feel like I just overthink, but I was able to see them. I didn’t take it personally that they didn’t know like what it was like, but I saw the need that to have lived experience in this field. And so I made my voice known to the workers here before my case closed like.

Hey, you ever have anything I can help out with or any support, let me know. I want to be involved. And so that’s how this door ended up opening up for me, ultimately, a year later. Can you say your question? Yes. OK, thank you. So I’m a parenting time specialist. lot of my job involves supervising visits, working one on one with parents to work on parenting skills. And addition, I feel like this role just gives me

Courtney (33:41.55)
So what is your role? What is your role now? Yeah.

Brenna Hunter (33:59.72)
a good front seat in supporting parents. Like my case manager is their client, the child, my client is the parent. And so sometimes my focus is on lot of parenting skills and teaching child development. Other times, though, I just see this person who genuinely needs to feel seen and heard. And so I’ll take them on and work with them long term. And while, yes, we’re doing parenting stuff, those are the clients I feel like that.

I end up working long-term with mainly because they’re letting me in on their story and they’re so not every one of my clients knows my history, but because I strategically disclose that when I feel like it is going to have a benefit to the client. cause I never want it to feel like I’m trying to make it about me if that makes sense. but some parent clients, it just resonates with or helps build a rapport.

Travis (34:51.417)
Mm-hmm.

Brenna Hunter (34:57.822)
easier. I feel like then I can also help bridge some of that with the case managers. Like when I’m able to get, I feel like I can quickly quicker. Sorry. I’m more quick to build a relationship and also small level of trust with a client than case manager. So it’s easier to help bridge that a little bit. Not always perfect. You can’t predict any human, but that’s the goal.

Travis (35:23.715)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Courtney (35:28.098)
makes total sense and I’m sure, you know, it’s kind of similar in the sense of that my husband went through childhood abuse growing up and he’s able to, you know, he does not disclose that day one when a kid comes into care, but most of the kids have that come into our home, most of are teenagers. And so he can get to that point later on in the relationship when they’re really having a breakdown to be like, I actually do get some of this and this is why, and then they like.

my goodness you you know i just thought you have this perfect life and this perfect home and this perfect family and it’s like no you know and i feel like it’s similar for you like to be able to connect on a different level yeah that happens to say there is there is a positive like your past does not have to predict your future determine your future like

Brenna Hunter (35:54.73)
Right. Exactly.

Travis (36:00.761)
Hmm.

Travis (36:06.627)
Mm-hmm.

Brenna Hunter (36:07.262)
Even same with caregivers. I feel like me sharing this information with caregivers is even less than the number of clients I share it with. But there has been times where a caregiver just will go on and on to me complaining about the parent or just maybe feeling hopeless about the parent. And then that’s when I will bring it up and say, share the bit of my story that I was my children who were in care too, and now here I am.

Travis (36:14.902)
us.

Travis (36:24.439)
Mm-hmm.

Brenna Hunter (36:35.542)
tied up by saying it. So that’s why I work in this field because not a lot of people know what it’s like.

Travis (36:41.975)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, we love to ask this question to our guests. And you actually have such a really unique vantage to be sort of seeing this on all angles and lenses. If you could change one thing about the foster care system, what would it

Courtney (36:42.968)
powerful.

Brenna Hunter (37:03.052)
I feel like I should have been prepared for that question because I feel like I’ve seen it everywhere. I don’t know. Because I feel like my brain starts to think so practical about things that like any there is no easy fix to any issue of the system. Like I feel like my state is doing a good job now at prevention services, like trying to make removal not occur. I’ve even seen that like comparing when my case came in to the time worked here.

Courtney (37:05.806)
Yeah.

Brenna Hunter (37:33.098)
There’s no case even remotely close to my case coming in right now. Like substance use, feel like might end up being a side factor to removals, but they aren’t removed for substance use specifically. Because, I was at this training a few weeks ago and one the speakers there was giving the statistics that statistically, unless the child’s life is in danger of like severe bodily injury or death.

the child does better long term with their biological family. So that’s where I’m at, there is a huge push now to do the prevent, like get these prevention services in place and try and prevent removals. In addition to that, then the whole kinship push. So a lot of our cases are going with family or be moved to family within 30 days of their case entering care because the data shows that’s where.

the child will thrive. But again, with this preservation thing, it’s just gonna take, it’s not an overnight fix. So the speaker was saying how it’s just, it’s gonna be a few year process before we even see the results of that work. I don’t know if that answers your question, but I just feel very broken. Like there’s nothing I can do to fix it. There’s nothing, but there’s still a lot of loose ends everywhere.

Courtney (38:45.677)
Hmm.

Travis (38:47.711)
Absolutely.

Courtney (38:51.83)
Yeah. Do you feel like thinking about your case specifically going back to that time of removal, looking back and knowing what you know now, the job that you have now, what do you think could have been done in that moment instead of removal? Is there something that you think this would have been a good case plan for me or for this situation rather than removal?

Brenna Hunter (39:17.511)
Yeah, no, I didn’t focus on my CPS journey because I don’t know why. That’s not a huge part of the story. Usually we’re for these things. I feel like there could have been a lot more prevention services. I just got all my CPS records a few months back and I was not known like if it was just trauma in my brain failing me for not remembering something specific or if I was born in Craigton. No, I was correct in that my son was born in August.

And the first service wasn’t put in place until the end of the year. They didn’t start putting me on drug screens till January. Like, I feel like everything was a lot late with my case specifically. But I still remember being so stressed out that we were in that point because the CPS worker was just coming unannounced all the time. And she would drug screen me unannounced. I just wasn’t on, like, the calling line yet. I feel like the expectations weren’t set. The biggest thing I wished going back was that I knew

what was expected of me to get my case closed. Because honestly, me as a parent in that time, like me as a worker now, I know that we want the family safer and that’s how we close the case. But me as a parent back then, I wasn’t thinking how can I be a safer parent? It was just how can I get these people out of my life? So I feel like I wished then that I could have known my expectation. I think that would have been, or like things would have felt like we were a team working on this together if I.

Travis (40:33.059)
Mm-hmm.

Brenna Hunter (40:45.44)
knew what was even going on versus this worker just coming to my house every few weeks and saying, if you don’t get clean, we’re taking your kids. Because that’s essentially what happened. If you don’t get clean, my supervisor says I have to take your kids without any practical knowledge of how to get clean.

Travis (40:55.289)
Hmm.

Travis (41:01.143)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney (41:02.874)
Yeah. Well, Brenna, we just really appreciate you again, being vulnerable, being willing to take time out of your day to come on and share. Again, this is reunification month and we want to highlight stories, we want to highlight the why behind it. Why is this month important? Why should we be focusing on this and understanding it and getting the lens that we should be getting it from our people like you? So thanks for sharing your journey. If you’re listening, I highly encourage you, if you’re a foster parent and you need some CE credit, go online, have fostercon.org.

And we have multiple free webinars on there, but there is one called Fostering Bio-Family Relationships. And you’ll hear more from Brenna on there and more just engagement from foster families of how you can really do this well. So I encourage you to take a listen and encourage you to dive more into reunification, not only this month, but all the time, and really have a heart behind if you’re a foster parent again, why is reunification the goal and understanding that and being a cheerleader for that when it’s safe and viable and most always a good option.

Travis (42:01.172)
Thanks for joining us today.

Brenna Hunter (42:04.62)
Sorry, it’s all recording.