The conversation emphasizes the importance of creating a safe and comfortable environment for children to express themselves and the transformative power of play in fostering emotional health. The hosts also explore the significance of humor and play in parenting, particularly in the context of fostering connections with children. Travis shares from a resource highlighting the fascinating parallels between humor and trauma on impacting the brain and of course where they diverge.
They talk about the importance of humor in child development and the therapeutic aspects of humor in relation to trauma. The conversation also delves into different types of play, the challenges of managing screen time, and the value of finding common interests to build relationships with kids. Ultimately, they emphasize that we’ll often never fully know the lasting impact of small moments of connection and how these moments can be life changing.
TRANSCRIPT:
Brian (00:01.636)
Hello, and welcome to the Foster Friendly Podcast. I’m your host, Brian Mavis, with my amazing co-host. I know how to define that word when I used intrepid last time, I wasn’t so sure. My amazing co-host, Courtney and Travis, and I’ve decided I’m gonna introduce every time my co-host with a new adjective. so, yes, and so my amazing co-host, how are you guys today?
Travis (00:13.752)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha
Travis (00:23.873)
I like it.
Travis (00:31.022)
That’s a common theme. Drinking coffee.
Courtney (00:31.046)
It’s bright and early here. So yeah, I’m waking up. But Brian, I think you need to go back and define intrepid for if people were listening to this last time, they need to know what does that mean?
Brian (00:31.748)
Tired? Alright, alright. Yeah, I’ve had my, had, yeah, what?
Travis (00:42.382)
man.
Brian (00:44.866)
Yes, it means brave and so brave or fearless and so you guys are both brave and amazing. But I also went to chat GDP and asked them for about 50 different adjectives that are hard to understand. So those will be coming up. Yes, that’s right. Our word for the day. That’s right. Yeah, and some of them may not be positive, so you’ll always have to look them up.
Travis (01:02.323)
I love it! Very educational!
Courtney (01:06.95)
Yeah, you’ll be calling us names that we don’t know.
Travis (01:10.211)
Haha
Courtney (01:13.694)
Challenge.
Brian (01:14.84)
Hahaha
Travis (01:15.702)
Well, as long as we both get the same one, because if one of us gets it, OK, that’s a whole nother.
Brian (01:17.53)
You will. yeah. Well, no. Now you’ve got a new idea. Yes. Well, I’m glad we’re laughing because today our theme is around play and fun and humor. How to use that as a tool in parenting. And so before we get talking about how to.
I love to hear you guys at your own experiences growing up when you were kids. Did you did your parents? Were they fun parents? Did they play with you? Yeah, like OK, remember our generation of growing up? Yeah, it was like yeah, I mean my dad’s parents were even worse so.
Travis (01:58.274)
Were they fun?
Travis (02:04.714)
man.
Courtney (02:04.936)
Hey!
Travis (02:10.314)
And sorry parents if you’re listening to this podcast,
Courtney (02:11.518)
That’s funny. Yeah.
Brian (02:11.93)
Uh-huh. Yeah, they didn’t know that fun was supposed to be part of parenting job descriptions. So, uh-huh.
Travis (02:23.192)
All right, Yogg is first. Courtney, you’re a little younger, I think, than me, so go for
Courtney (02:27.426)
OK, so funny, I was thinking about this and my mom was thinking, what if my mom listens to this? I really want to honor her. But true story is my mother-in-law has a gift of play, like she comes to our home and she will sit and play for hours with the kids without wearing out, without letting you get exhausted. She can just sit and play. And my mom, one time she was over and she was kind of watching and she’s like, wow, like I’m kind of jealous of that grandma because I don’t have that gift.
Brian (02:32.797)
Ha!
Travis (02:36.558)
haha
Brian (02:57.006)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (02:57.374)
And was funny, we started talking a little bit about growing up and I was like, no, my parents really didn’t play with us. It was kind of, we had two brothers. We not, we weren’t left alone. My mom stayed at home a lot of the times, but it was you guys go play with each other. And my mom and dad didn’t engage with us in that way. Didn’t mean we didn’t have a fun household. Didn’t mean that we didn’t connect with them, but it just, the playing together was not something that we did as children that I remember really at all.
Brian (03:19.61)
Okay, so you’re not going to have much to contribute today. That’s good to know. All right. All right. Okay, Travis, what about you? On the North Dakota farm sounds like lots of playtime.
Courtney (03:21.853)
Yeah.
Travis (03:24.43)
Thanks, Mom!
Courtney (03:25.534)
Yeah, hope you’re listening.
Travis (03:34.35)
Well, yeah, well, funny thing is we’re both from North Dakota, me and Courtney, so different parts of the state. yeah, so yes, on the farm, I can look back and say our family did play a lot of volleyball. There wasn’t a lot going on out in the plains. So I remember volleyball. And I do remember
as hard as it was farming and as, and I was, I was driving, you know, grain trucks and things at like 12, I feel like. I was like, I felt like my childhood kind of got robbed to farming, but I do remember my dad being real playful at times. And I remember distinctly being younger and he did this thing where laid on his back and then to get a ride up to the top, laying on his feet flat, had to sniff the feet.
So what, and then the higher you go, right? And so like, that was a kind of a traumatic thing too, but it was a playful, was, he had a goofy sense of humor. So it was just like, yeah, sniff dad’s feet for the ride up high, man.
Brian (04:34.487)
Yeah
Courtney (04:35.346)
Yeah.
Brian (04:42.916)
Yeah
Courtney (04:44.49)
my goodness.
Brian (04:46.232)
Yeah. All right. Okay. this ought to be a pretty, dysfunctional podcast. Well, I also, grew up in a, family that valued work. And so my dad owned a construction company. And so when I was six years old, he started a construction company called Mavis and Sons. So I was his first employee at six years old. So, and so spent the summers working.
Travis (04:51.447)
ha
What about you?
Brian (05:15.78)
But I also, did, he was, my parents have great parents. My dad was very intentional about, he was a soccer coach, knew nothing about soccer. My little league coach. And then he got me into scouts and he was active in that as well. So our play was very organized. It was around, you know, he, so.
I wouldn’t say he’s a funny guy. He’s, and, and we didn’t go out like goofing around or anything. But I do like, I think I remember times, you know, him wrestling. And I remember him really little. And similar to what your dad did. He would lay on his back and he put me on his feet and then put me up in the air like I was flying and stuff like that. Yeah, uh-huh, yeah.
Travis (06:03.886)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (06:10.542)
That’s what it was. That’s exactly what it was. But you didn’t have to sniff the feet though. That’s the… my gosh. What? You didn’t earn it then. You didn’t have to earn it.
Brian (06:14.476)
I didn’t have to sniff the feet. No, Right. Yeah, it was. So, yeah. But as a kid, I remember just loving getting to wrestle with my dad or loving the getting to, you know, acting like we were flying and in my fall or and having I think
Fun and play are severely, severely underestimated as a connection tool. And when you have some parenting deficits, it’s remarkable how play can make up for some of those deficits you might have. so, so anyway, what thinking about us is,
Kids in our own experience, wonder though what it looks like now as we’re parenting. And so we’ll explore that, what you guys are doing. But first, just to say, give this to you guys, both of you, feel free to take it how you want, but why? Why does this work? Why is play effective? And why especially is it effective with kids who have experienced harm, experienced trauma?
How, how or why, why does it work? Why, what’s it, what happens?
Courtney (07:53.118)
I mean, think first off, it makes kids feel comfortable. You I think my husband has a gift with words in making kids, teens feel comfortable when they come into our home. Just a couple of weeks ago, we had a young man with us for a short period of time. He walked in our door and right off the bat, my husband starts asking questions in a playful way and this just makes him smile. mean, this guy, kid walked in 17 years old, very fearful, walking to a home with lots of people, people who doesn’t know. And my husband just has a way of making him smile within minutes of walking in our door.
Brian (08:02.266)
Hmm.
Brian (08:18.67)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (08:22.814)
And I didn’t really recognize this. Funny enough, I didn’t recognize this to my husband until a few years ago, one of our caseworkers was over and she’s like, Bobby and Courtney, one thing I really noticed about you guys is you guys have a gift of play. And I was like, we do? Because I don’t feel like I’ve got a gift of play. And she’s like, no, you guys make these kids feel comfortable in a playful, engaging way. really, she wasn’t talking, and we’ll get more into this, but she wasn’t talking about the sitting down on the floor and playing with them necessarily, but what I’m talking about, like the playful engagement with your voice, with the questions you ask, with how you tie into something they might like.
Travis (08:35.104)
Ahaha… haha…
Brian (08:35.93)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (08:49.006)
Hmm.
Brian (08:49.112)
Hmm
Courtney (08:52.712)
Like that disarms fear and it makes kids feel, again, I’m gonna speak mostly of teenagers, because that’s who we see mostly in our house, but it makes them feel comfortable.
Travis (08:52.824)
Hmm.
Brian (09:00.494)
So give me an example, Courtney, maybe even whether you want to apply it to what you did or illustrate it through what your husband did. But you say a playful question, a playful tone, like what do you mean?
Courtney (09:14.046)
Yeah, a teenage boy walks into our house, first meeting him, and he’s got headphones on his head, which is common these days, right? And my husband’s like, can you even hear what I’m saying right now? know, joking around with him. He’s like, I didn’t think you were listening. you know, just totally being playful with him. And then the guy’s like, this guy’s kind of being funny. And, you know, and then what kind of music do you like to listen to? And then you tie it into their likes and, you like rap? Well, I hate rap, but we’ll play it in our house to, you know, to make you feel comfortable. And just…
Brian (09:19.62)
Yeah.
Travis (09:20.13)
No
Yeah.
Brian (09:29.274)
Uh-huh.
Travis (09:29.774)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (09:33.634)
Mm.
Yeah.
Brian (09:38.638)
Yeah.
Courtney (09:39.57)
Yeah, just again, it’s that comfort and it doesn’t sound like play. Like when I say that out loud, that doesn’t sound like play, but it really is. It’s that engaging, disarming fear mentality of it’s not all serious.
Brian (09:52.11)
Yeah, because it is such a heavy moment. mean, here you go in this example you’re giving of a child now coming in, a youth coming into your house under the reason they’re there is bad circumstances. And so it could feel like, OK, this is heavy, this is dark. The people I’m coming into, they’re going to set the ground rules. It’s going to be all serious. then they’re greeted with a lightness.
Yeah, I think that all of sudden they’re like, I don’t have to protect my heart as much as I thought I might have to. Travis, what would you say is why is humor such an important and playfulness an important tool to have?
Travis (10:26.222)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (10:26.834)
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Travis (10:39.554)
Well, like Courtney already said, it instantly is a connector. think it, both things play and humor help us regulate, you know, there’s all kinds of studies around the brain and how, you know, just the release of hormones, dopamine, serotonin, those type, you know, feel good hormones are happening. And I mean, I love the example with, know, your husband, Bobby of where you have this kind of, you know, could be an intimidating transition time.
Brian (10:52.505)
Hmm.
Travis (11:07.542)
and coming in and wondering what’s this person like and to immediately for him to sort of like, I’m going to be playful and jokey. And that’s going to be our first entrance into our relationship. And you can kind of as a kid feel like, okay, he’s a, he’s safe. They’re safe, but also like they don’t take themselves too seriously. Like I think that is, I love how you open the podcast, Brian, cause I do think those types of things are underrated things that are amazing tools.
You know, training is important, all that stuff, but some of that stuff is like huge. So.
Courtney (11:41.534)
And just also noticing a lot of these kids can’t pick up on sarcasm or like, is this person joking? I don’t know this person. And so he does also, he’ll be like, he’ll just nudge him on the shoulder, know, like a light little like, oh, I’m just joking. And then he laughs and then the kids starts laughing. And, but pointing that out as well that often we need to say like, I’m joking right now, or that was a joke, because they might not catch it. Yeah.
Travis (11:45.752)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brian (11:46.355)
yeah, that’s true, that’s true.
Travis (11:52.823)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (12:00.76)
Yep. Yeah. Yeah.
Brian (12:01.506)
Yeah, that’s boy, that that is a good point that we’ve experienced that too, where they they’re not used to that jokiness. And so when you say something in sarcastic, they might take it seriously. So that’s a that’s a really good point. Travis, when you were talking about just how laugh and humor play hits off some positive chemical reactions and and so
I was saying like there’s kind of like four positive ones that hit the brain and I just came up with their cross stick right now, call it dose. So you increase the dosage and so the dose would be dopamine, oxycontin, serotonin and then I couldn’t remember the E. I was like, there’s an E, it’s not estrogen.
Travis (12:39.054)
Mmm.
Brian (12:56.186)
I think it’s I think it’s endorphins and so and so just realizing that doing that you can you can almost sometimes actually see the physical effect that when you get a kid from scared or sad to feeling light and laughing that you just like man you can virtually see the chemicals hitting.
Courtney (12:56.219)
We don’t need more of that.
Travis (12:57.326)
We don’t need more of that.
Endorphins.
Courtney (13:02.311)
Yep.
Brian (13:25.528)
their brains and then changing them all together. Okay, so can you guys think of your own experience? You both have huge parenting experiences to draw from. Think of an example where play helped you break through a barrier.
Travis (13:45.01)
for me, I’m thinking back to, two quick examples. One is not foster care involved. was a mission trip to Honduras and which you’ve been, think as well. and I, I still, it’s like frozen in my mind at this moment of getting there and soccer or were they called football, internationally, but was an absolute connecting thing. I was just like, cause we didn’t, I didn’t know Spanish hardly. So it was just like,
Brian (13:53.442)
Hmm. Yeah, yeah.
Brian (14:03.566)
Yeah.
Travis (14:14.754)
but with the village kids and like even adults are coming out and just kicking the ball to each other and just sharing it. was like this, like it was a way of communication. I have no other way to like, but you’re just sort of open inviting that. that was a, so that cross language barriers. And then I would say back to our experience fostering and mine primarily comes from a group home was that of course we were having lots of placements, know, kids are coming in and maybe shorter stays and even some foster homes. And so.
Brian (14:38.106)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (14:42.584)
kind of back to what Courtney was saying, the transitions. I remember a lot of times where a kid coming in, again, who are these people? I’m scared, you know, that kind of deal. And just kind of quickly trying to find out, hey, what are you into? You know, and like kind of a feel for like, it’s skateboarding, it’s football, it’s whatever. And then trying to quickly sort of, hey, let’s go toss the ball, let’s go play basketball. And kind of immediately starting with play. We had kind of elementary or…
middle, young middle schoolers. like that was easy. So I just remember with placement transitions, trying to quickly play. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. With, yeah, mountain biking. And so like we did a lot of like fixing and riding bikes and those are big things.
Brian (15:14.734)
Yeah, you did stuff with my bicycles too, as well.
Brian (15:26.424)
Yeah, Courtney, what about you?
Courtney (15:29.906)
Yeah, I immediately go back to our most recent long-term placement. This young man was a therapeutic placement and had a lot of mental health things going on and was just very easily set off and had high emotions. He was 14, but he loved, loved board games and I love board games. And so, and not in like, I’m trying to convince him to do something, but it was like our connecting point and it was the only thing we really found of getting him to do something, you know, like.
Brian (15:48.654)
Hmm
Courtney (15:59.538)
to do his chores or to settle down. Like he would often have these really big emotions and he’d go downstairs by himself to his room, which that was a safe place, right? That’s fine. And he would come up afterwards and he would say, can we play a board game? And we’d sit down and it was, I taught him from the very beginning, like, unless there’s an absolute reason why I cannot play a game with you, I will play a game with you every evening, unless there’s a solid reason that I can’t. And so he’d come up cause he would know that was my rule. Like if you ask, I’m going to say yes.
Travis (16:12.718)
Ha
Courtney (16:26.43)
And we would sit down and we’d start playing a board game. he, I would ask him like, do you want me to play safe or do you want me to play hard? And in other words, like, do you want me to let you win? And sometimes, and he knew what I meant by that. And he, again, because of his high emotions, sometimes it was, you let me win tonight? Or sometimes I was like, no, like I want game on. And he was very smart. So it really was game on most of the time anyways. But like we would sit down and we’d play a board game and then it would be, you know, we’d be 15 minutes in and he’d be like, do you know what really set me off today? And then he would start talking.
Travis (16:36.494)
Ha ha.
Travis (16:46.094)
Ha
Brian (16:46.222)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (16:56.574)
And a lot of times I just listened and we keep playing our game. And the next thing it was, you know, what I was thinking about when I was downstairs and then we keep playing. And it’s like, was disarming, even his emotions and regulating him in the moment of, we’re in the safe place playing a game. Courtney’s saying yes to me in the moment of playing a game with me. were together, but it’s not this, we’re sitting down with each other on the couch, looking at each other eye to eye. We’re just playing a game and then it comes out. And then we have that healing moment where he’s fine the rest of the night. And this was very commonplace for the year he was with us. mean.
Brian (17:17.166)
Mmm.
Brian (17:22.041)
Hmm
Courtney (17:26.864)
at least twice a week. This was exactly how it played out.
Brian (17:30.241)
Mmm.
Travis (17:30.766)
Oh, I love that. Yeah. That, that actually reminds me, I’ve got a friend who I think is an incredible foster dad in South Dakota and he just, he has teenagers, always teenage boys that he deals with some really hard to place guys that really have struggled. But one of the things I’ve watched with him is to your point, when he’s playing video games or just letting them play video games, but being near them, not having an agenda necessarily, but being around them while they’re playing. said,
something about what you just said about that just opens up this safe space to just like they’ll just start throwing out like hey this is what happened to school and much different than if he were necessarily to sit down and be like hey how did your school go today but it’s just they feel safe and just like hey they’re in their zone anyway so that was cool
Brian (18:11.192)
Yeah.
Brian (18:16.354)
No, that’s I love that you guys drew that out because, you know, I was just thinking of like, OK, play play for its own sake is is good. But that you’re you’re both now saying, hey, this is also a moment that creates a safe space to share things that may not feel safe to share otherwise. And, you know, if you asked about their school without that context of play around it, they could shut down.
They could see it as a threat. so it’s, said, think play just by itself, even if you don’t have a conversation. I mean, super valuable. But if, if it works while you’re, you know, tossing the ball back and forth, while you’re sitting at a board game, while you’re sitting next to the kid playing a video game, if that conversation can happen, wow, you got a double.
Travis (19:09.794)
Yeah. It’s a bonus. Yeah. Yeah.
Brian (19:12.122)
Double whammy, yes, icing on top of the cake for sure. Wow. So those are great examples, great examples of how easy play can be and how transformative it can be. So we’re also talking about humor. And so there’s some people who are like, I’m not like a playful kind of person, but I’m kind of funny. so, and…
Ken, and you talked about that a little bit Courtney with Bobby and, but also let’s unpack humor a little bit. Can you guys, mean, why is humor work? Can you think of examples as well where just like you did with play, think of times when humor worked.
Courtney (20:00.702)
Yeah, know, it’s funny. We were watching home videos other night. My kids like to do this every once in a while. go on. We say we use Dropbox. We go on Dropbox. We just go through videos after video after video. And our two youngest were adopted three years ago now. And when they first came to our house, it’s like they, the one was 10 days old. The other one was two. And our two year old, who’s now seven, had a hard time connecting. And we were watching these home videos. And when I watched these videos and I watched the humor that my kids were trying to install in them, like,
Brian (20:09.915)
Hmm.
Brian (20:20.122)
Hmm.
Brian (20:24.335)
Hmm.
Brian (20:30.532)
Hmm.
Courtney (20:30.77)
you know, throwing a ball and dropping it or loving it hit them and then be like, ow, and making loud noises. And as we’re watching these videos, the youngest one who came at 10 days old, you know, as she grew older, in all these videos, you’re watching her laugh and laugh and laugh. And my kids are doing things on purpose to make her laugh. And then we’re in the background, everybody’s laughing. And it was so fascinating. I didn’t really think about it. Again, I knew this podcast was coming up and I start watching my son who came to us at two, he’s now seven. And I watch him over these home videos.
Brian (20:34.713)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (20:46.063)
Mmm, mmm.
Courtney (20:58.12)
Like those first couple of years, we were trying to be humorous. We were trying to get him to laugh. We were trying to pull that in. And it was like a blink. Like his face was not laughing. It was not connecting. And then I started seeing it four years old. He’s starting to laugh when my kids are doing funny things to try to bring humor in. And now at seven, he walks around laughing his head off and thinks my kids and us were hilarious, you know? And it just really resonated with me to see that transition and how far we’ve come and being able to recognize that.
Brian (21:03.362)
Hmm.
Brian (21:06.906)
Mmm.
Travis (21:17.037)
haha
Brian (21:20.738)
Wow.
Courtney (21:27.474)
but also knowing that if it’s not there right now, if they’re not recognizing the humor, if they’re not laughing alongside you, just keep at it. Like keep working on these kids because it might take time. And those everyday moments is how we try to pull on the humor. We’ll be sitting at the dinner table and somebody will say something and we’re laughing or again, watching these home videos and my daughter, was like seven months old at the time and she was knocking her sippy cup off her tray.
Brian (21:36.451)
Wow.
Courtney (21:52.572)
We all start laughing and making big noise and she does it again and everybody around the table is just dying with laughter. So like just bringing in laughter into meal time, meal prep, picking up from school, like how we can bring that humor in, in not a rude way, because humor could easily be rude, right? But not in a rude way, but in a just playful and making people smile and laugh. That’s, that to me is like the joy of a parent.
Brian (22:15.662)
Hmm. Yeah, boy, you said some things that resonate with me too. There we’ve had some kids who you come in and man, they are stoic. They like they’re not even doing they’re not used to humor. And so they’re confused by it. And so it’s I mean, it’s sad, it’s sad to see. And then like, but fortunately, they they can start.
Travis (22:16.013)
Yeah.
Travis (22:29.198)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (22:37.315)
Yeah.
Brian (22:42.424)
They can, humor can change them, change their brain and lighten them. Travis, what about you?
Travis (22:46.702)
Well, that’s a great segue. What I was going to say is how it changes the brain. So I came across an article like several years ago. It’s called a laughing matter, transforming trauma through therapeutic humor. And it’s kind of a thesis paper. So it’s like, you know, I guess it was in research and development, but I just wanted to read something real quick from it. Basically that kind of, yeah, I think reinforces all this, but basically what’s fascinating is this person who I think became a therapist talks about
Brian (22:58.703)
Hmm.
Travis (23:16.684)
the symmetry between trauma and humor on the brain. so it gives me, which is fascinating to actually then think of why then humor may be as an effective tool as anything else when done in the right way, right? But she says a couple of things that stand out. said both humor and trauma are both generally considered perspectival, meaning they’re both dependent upon a situation and a perceiver of the situation. They also, and I think that’s fascinating, share the
Brian (23:23.204)
Hmm.
Brian (23:29.038)
Yeah.
Travis (23:45.4)
quality of incongruity in relation to an eternal logic. So one’s internal logic is jolted when reacting to both comedy and trauma. So that element of being taken by surprise that happens, you know, destructively in trauma. And then we think of like great comedy. It’s the shift of a joke, the surprise, like that’s what makes it funny. Like you’re going one way and then all of sudden. And so anyway, she kind of, it’s a whole, yeah, I’m not even getting the rest of it, but the
Courtney (23:49.822)
one’s internal losses when reacting to both problems and trauma.
Brian (23:57.85)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (24:13.7)
No, it’s yeah, essentially even how humor is referred to as a punch line. There’s a punch.
Travis (24:16.078)
Yeah, that’s exactly that’s good. Yeah, I never thought of that. And then it’s just said that both of them cause a sudden shift within the perceiver. And then so while trauma creates rigidity, anxiety, isolation, and cognitive dysregulation, she says humor creates expansion, openness, creativity and social connections. So it’s as if sort of these symmetrical things. Anyway, I just thought that’s so fascinating.
Courtney (24:38.206)
those are just sort symmetrical things. Anyway, I just thought that was so fast.
Brian (24:39.258)
Wow.
Brian (24:43.63)
That is fascinating. Wow, it’s the yin to the trauma’s yang, I guess. Yeah, you’re welcome for the Zen Buddhism wisdom today. All right. I got advice on humor decades ago. It was actually from, you guys know this, but from my mentor who passed away a couple of weeks ago.
Travis (24:49.602)
Yeah. Yeah.
Courtney (24:49.702)
Yeah.
hahahaha
Travis (24:55.627)
Reference. Nice.
Brian (25:12.928)
He, this is back when I was like in my upper 20s and I was joking around and I think I was joking at someone’s expense. And he said, if you’re joking around with someone and you’re making fun of them, only make fun of their strengths, not their weaknesses. And so,
Courtney (25:36.254)
Hmm.
Brian (25:40.418)
I thought, man, that is great advice. And so even one, you know, with your own kids that have like, hey, if you’re going to poke fun in a sense that you can do it in a way that is appropriate, even positive by just kind of, you know, pointing out their strength and how it could be annoying or whatever. But it lifts them up versus making fun of something they’re not good at.
Courtney (26:07.592)
Yeah.
Travis (26:08.426)
I, one of the things I, it makes me think too is you are really funny, Brian. Like you’re one of the funniest people I know. I really appreciate, I’ve always appreciated humor in all kinds of ways. Like what, what is it for you about humor that, you know, you kind of so regularly, I guess, go to that and use that just in so many things.
Brian (26:26.322)
I think it makes people feel safe. so I am trying to create a… mean, you hear about comedians saying they just like making people laugh. But I think that’s… I don’t know if that’s what they’re really trying to do. And I know it’s probably not what I’m trying to do. mean, laughing is what I’m really trying to do is make someone feel safe.
And I think just as we’ve said already on this podcast, it does create lightness of heart where a person says, okay, you’re not a threat to me. And even when you’re poking fun in a way, you were doing it in a way that makes me feel good about myself. Yeah, yeah.
Okay, so let’s get down to some real practical applications here. So I’ll let you guys take a stab at it. What practical ways could you use play and humor? We’ll use a go either way to build connections and promote healing.
Courtney (27:48.094)
Yeah, I one thing we’ve kind of haven’t hit on yet is we’re talking a lot about humor and laughter and sarcasm and those things which are great, but recognizing those aren’t the only types of play, right? Those are kind of the everyday easy, but then there’s the actual physical getting down the floor, sitting at the table and playing with kids or being outside and playing. so I think about like the different types of play and there are, you know, there’s probably way more, but I think of like four easy types of play.
There’s dramatic play where we’re acting out where the dolls and Barbies and toys like that that we’re pretending we’re in a situation and that I have learned so much about kids who that type of play and that’s that’s like my least favorite type of play. not gonna lie. I don’t like that type of play. I like telling stories like I’ll lay down in bed at night and tell my kids stories and mix things up. But like to sit and play with dolls that is like not my thing. But I’ve learned so much about kids. mean.
Brian (28:22.382)
Mmm.
Brian (28:30.339)
Mm.
Brian (28:38.019)
Mm-hmm
Courtney (28:41.798)
some things that I don’t even wanna know about the kids. I’ve had two-year-olds come to our home who start putting the dolls on top of each other and making sexual things. And it’s like, that tells me something. then, yeah, and things that I wouldn’t have noticed if I didn’t sit down on the floor and play with them, right? I mean, we learn so much about their experiences, good or bad. We learn about who they are through…
Travis (28:50.094)
them.
Travis (28:53.88)
Thank
Brian (28:53.882)
Oh boy, it sure does.
Courtney (29:07.218)
the way they play, the way they play with dolls. And I’ve heard that many times, the way that a kid treats a doll or treats an animal tells you a lot about what their security or their attachment is and has been in the past. And then sensory play, sensory play, know, regulating their senses. I think about Play-Doh and sand and all those things are swinging outside. Anything that regulates the senses is, and they are some of those things that our kids need most, right? So thinking about the touch and the tactile, but then also the
Brian (29:11.788)
Mmm. Mmm. Mm-hmm.
Travis (29:11.864)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (29:20.162)
Hmm.
Travis (29:32.64)
huh.
Brian (29:32.74)
Hmm.
Courtney (29:35.836)
the movement and the swinging and the stipular. Those are the things we probably see our kids needing. We just put a new swing upstairs in our little play area, our reading area for our kiddo who has some OT things going on and is like, hey, he needs that. And so we can sit up there and swing while I’m reading to him now. He can swing and he’s listening better. He’s engaging better. Outdoor play, of course. That’s my favorite. Like I love being outside. So outdoor venture, being outside. That’s probably the one that comes easiest to adults, I would think.
Brian (29:55.439)
Hmm.
Travis (29:55.502)
Mm.
Ha, yep.
Travis (30:03.917)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (30:05.34)
sports, hiking, and then constructive play, like that engineering mind. And when you think about all these, like constructive play, engineering, painting, artistical, if you look at those different plays too, recognizing, like for me, like I said, I can look at them and be like, dramatic play, my least favorite. But knowing there are kids that think that is their absolute favorite type of play. And so we need to get to know the kids that come into our care, into our homes, to be like, what is the type of play that they are seeking?
Brian (30:18.923)
Thank
Courtney (30:34.726)
what is it I’m offering? And really notice that there’s a big difference in them. Like I said, I love board games. So it’s really easy for me to connect with the teens that come into my home and want to learn or play board games. It’s harder for me to connect with the little kids that want to sit down and play Barbies all day, because I don’t enjoy that, but just recognizing that.
Travis (30:40.034)
Hmm.
Travis (30:53.27)
Mm-hmm. I’d a cool I’d
Brian (30:55.13)
So, okay, that’s good. So I’m sorry, repeat those four again, dramatic.
Courtney (30:59.742)
dramatic play or fantasy play, sensory play, outdoor physical play and constructive play.
Brian (31:06.202)
Okay, all right, okay. Sorry, go ahead.
Travis (31:07.15)
No, you’re good. No, I was good to recap. I just actually had a follow up to what you said, cause I was going to ask you something Courtney of people that may in today’s age, where I feel like even like there was an era where the three of us grew up where it just much less screens and no screens. Now we’re in this era where so many people, feel like I’m hearing things like, and you probably hear this all the time, like whether it’s video games, social media, I can’t get my kid. And then if
Brian (31:25.4)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (31:34.87)
my kids, break away from that. So if you’ve got kids in foster care in your house, I’m really curious, Courtney, with all that you guys have and with teenagers and then your guys’ personal love of outdoor and play and like, how have you kind of put like pushes, I mean, kind of encourage kids to get off, like how have you kind of combated that whole deal with screens and.
Brian (31:35.129)
Mmm.
Brian (31:53.945)
Mmm.
Courtney (31:55.964)
Well, we should probably do a whole episode on this, but we do. have like an electronics policy and we go through it, not the first day, you know, we let the kids kind of sink in a little bit. But then after a few days, we go over our electronics policy and we have the complete blessing of our caseworkers to say, yes, is in Colorado, there’s a bill of rights for the foster youth. And one of those things is they have the right to have a phone. They have a right to have these things. But it doesn’t say how that has to play out in my house.
Brian (31:58.997)
Right?
Courtney (32:24.114)
And so we have a policy and we can take their phone away. We can do these other things. And we set it very straight and you know when we go over it, we just did this a of weeks ago. So I remember very clearly my husband looking at the kid and saying, this is not just to have a rule in place. This is for all of us in our home. And every single one of us from six to eight, our phones are put away. of us. Even Bobby and I, we put our phones away. That is like our family connecting time.
And we expect that from anybody that’s in our home. And this is why this is what we want from you. Like we really want to form a relationship with you. We want to get to know you. And we can’t do that if you’re sitting on a phone all day, like, you know, and then we might play a board game. We might go outside and play basketball. We might do something. They don’t have to do those things with us, but they’re not on their phones. So oftentimes they will just jump in.
Brian (32:59.566)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (33:00.6)
Yeah.
Travis (33:10.37)
That’s really good advice, I like that.
Brian (33:11.514)
Yeah, OK, anything else? Just practical application.
Travis (33:18.954)
I would just add to that, like your common interests, find out what those things are, talk about that type of thing. I would also say to the men out there. I think that especially with, well, not just boys, but girls and boys, kids really do look up to the things that, parents are into. And I can think of men, especially that when we.
Brian (33:41.561)
Yes.
Travis (33:44.77)
thing of, I don’t feel like I’m bringing anything. My wife is the expert in all the behaviors or all the stuff. And, you know, kind of that can be a stereotypical thing of like, I guess I’m just here. I’m trying to find out my place, but I’ve kind of seen where kids really do love to see what you’re into. And I think that you can also really invite them into and realize like, even if that didn’t start as a common interest, it’s just amazing how much they want to gravitate to the things you’re into. So if it’s.
you know, even like repairing a car or, know, whatever. mean, I mean, your hobbies that those, those really can align and, and, hopefully you create new ones together. But I just have seen that too, like in my experience, I’ve said this before, but a lot of these kids had never mountain bikes that I worked with. And then to then also be working on mountain bikes and fixing and repairing. was just amazing to see how much they got excited about that. Cause I did. And yeah.
Brian (34:37.026)
Yes, I love that Travis that so many of these kids like what are they into it was like well they don’t have that many experiences they haven’t been shown how to play with and so that if you’re looking for a common interest you may not find one so they need to discover your interest. Yeah that’s so good so yeah guys and gals who applies to both but
Courtney (34:37.918)
Mm.
Travis (34:45.623)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (34:57.08)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (35:06.958)
Like you said, Travis, sometimes guys feel like they don’t have as much to contribute. Invite these kids into the things that you love and see how that goes. All right, anything else?
Courtney (35:21.288)
I was just thinking back to our initial question at very beginning. It’s funny how when we asked that question about us growing up, I naturally thought about my mom and you two both naturally thought about your fathers. And it’s just, yeah, it’s funny to think about. Like my dad probably was more playful than my mom, but naturally I’m thinking more of my lens as a mom now. And that’s probably why I was thinking about my mom and what she did. And you guys, I’m guessing that’s probably the same thing. Like who am I as a father? What was my father like?
Brian (35:31.715)
Hmm.
Travis (35:41.166)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (35:41.45)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and so yeah, I mean, maybe I guess pay attention to that too. If you have these kids in your life, is it a boy or a girl? And if you’re bringing in boys into your family, then the father, the foster parent may need to step up more than he might traditionally do. So
Travis (35:45.774)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Brian (36:10.732)
if it were a girl that was in there. I’d also say that my own experience, I can’t imagine, it hasn’t been the same for you guys as well. I guess Courtney, you’ve at least alluded to it a little bit, is our own biological children. They, sometimes they can play and connect better to the kids through play than the parents can.
And so keep in mind what a huge asset your own kids can be when they’re like, know, what role can we play in being a foster family? It’s like just play with the kids and that can be huge for them.
Travis (36:56.398)
Mm.
Courtney (37:01.49)
Yeah. And I love that you bring that up. is so, we talk about that a lot, but I will say going back to at the beginning when I said my mom didn’t play much and it was like, Hey, you siblings go play with each other. You know, and we did. And I had, we had an amazing childhood. We lived in a town and we just had adventure after adventure and had great brothers that just, did a lot together, but I don’t ever want my kids to feel like I can’t do that as well. And these kids coming to my home that I can’t play with them. And I do feel that way. And I catch myself in that. Like,
Travis (37:01.56)
That’s good.
haha
Travis (37:26.36)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (37:31.666)
Hey, you guys go play, mom’s gotta get this done. Then we’ll do dinner and then you guys go play and then this. And it’s like, it’s always them versus me sitting down and doing it. And I’ve tried to get really good. My five year old, she just asks for it. The other kids, sometimes they just fall into that routine of like, mom’s busy, dad’s busy, but she will ask for it.
Brian (37:36.27)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (37:39.662)
Mmm.
Courtney (37:51.44)
I can almost guarantee you we’re going to get off this podcast and she’s going to, I’m to go out and she’s going to say, Hey mom, will you play with me? Hey mom, will you do this with me? And did you say yes to be able to be like, yes, I have 15 minutes, even if it’s 15 minutes. And sometimes even just setting that timer. Be like, Hey, I can play with you for 15 minutes. Here’s our timer. Then I have to go back to work. And that’s a balance for a lot of us that work from home as well. You know, I’m at home, my kids are in the next room and then they want my attention, but I have work to get done. But just being able to say yes to them. I mean, it, it.
Travis (37:51.778)
Mm.
Brian (37:56.953)
Yeah.
Travis (37:59.512)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Travis (38:11.662)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (38:19.324)
tells them so much about where your heart is, where your connection is, and makes them feel so happy. I mean, they want that. They’re seeking that. And I don’t want my kids to grow up. And again, my mom was wonderful. But I don’t want them to grow up and be like, my mom never played with us, you know?
Travis (38:23.594)
Yes.
Yeah.
Travis (38:32.558)
Yeah. man. I, I just want to add to that of like that, that makes me so happy to hear that. Cause it, it’s one of my favorite, one of my favorite quotes is by Kurt Vonnegut. When he says, enjoy the little things in life. Cause someday you’ll look back and realize they were the big things. And what I love about what you just said is that exact thing. Some of the greatest memories, the three of us might have looking back was just those, that time, that’s the time at a lake or that small moment of like, for me, it’s.
Brian (38:34.094)
Yeah.
Brian (38:49.134)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (39:01.806)
playing basketball with my dad. But that was a small thing, but it’s a thing at 45, I carry with me as a treasure the rest of my life. But the whole thing to me of this podcast is the reminder that these little moments of engaging in play or taking the extra time to, those are lifetime things and they’re gifts that we’re giving the kids and helping them heal as well.
Brian (39:23.82)
I think that’s a great way to cap this off that even if you are listening and you don’t think you’re a very playful or funny person, we’d love for you to embrace the attitude of saying yes to the opportunities, creating opportunities and appreciating the big things that small moments can create.
Travis (39:50.574)
Hmm.
Brian (39:53.57)
Say yes to play. All right, thanks Travis Courtney, you are amazing.
Courtney (39:55.25)
Yes, connect with your kiddos.
Courtney (40:03.238)
Yeah. See ya.
Travis (40:03.38)
You are too. Good seeing you.
